…what LB said, about this terribly daring article that seems to suggest that the importance of identifying and eliminating bias affecting women in the sciences cannot be determined unless science has established that men and women have the same innate* mathematical abilities. To this I’d add the following:
1) This argument apparently only works for math. If we’re talking at the level of the facts people normally pull out here, there’s some research that suggests that at the tip of the tail, the brightest men are better at math than the brightest women, and the usual argument proceeds from here to conclude that this explains why men are more likely to be PhD’s in math, etc. But similar research shows that the best female communicators are better than their male counterparts, and that women are natural consensus builders and yet no one suggests that top literature and political science departments are and should be female-dominated, because here we can easily see that innate tendencies can be overrun by other factors.
In fact, when girls get into gifted programs in greater numbers than boys, there are articles in the NYT about ways we have to ensure that the boys are tested properly, worrying about the biases and expectations of the teachers and testers. This is a smart thing to consider. Would that we took the same attitude towards preteen girls who struggle with math instead of writing them off because the top men might be better than the top women!
2. You (probably) cannot see the tip of the tail from where you are. The hidden assumption of these kinds of arguments is that the granting of, say, academic positions in the sciences at Harvard neatly tracks mathematical ability, and that the academic positions in question always go to the candidate who is best at math. (It would make hiring easier…) I think it’s questionable whether the marginal utility of mathematical talent is sufficient at the top end across all scientific disciplines to explain any kind of hiring disparity. Being a 1.23% better mathematician might be outweighed easily by a more creative head for experimental design, or a stronger work ethic, or a charming personality that encourages others to collaborate, or having an advisor run into someone at a conference and drop your name, or having a generous grant, or what have you.
Moreover, the purported difference in mathematical ability is not sufficient to explain day-to-day disparities in the professions. Not everyone who is a working scientist or engineer or statistician or social scientist is in the top 1% of mathematical abilities. Not even close. Sometimes they let you be an engineer with only 650 on the Math SAT! The relevance of the long tail for most very smart people: not so much.
2b. Side note to philosophers: we’re not actually mathematicians. This needs to be said.
3. An uncomfortable alternative explanation suggests itself. Let me set aside the sciences for the moment. Philosophy is about 25% female, and whenever this topic comes up, some philosophers fall all over themselves explaining why more women don’t major in philosophy, why more don’t go to grad school, why women drop out along the tenure stream in ways that ensure it’s not their fault: there are differences between men and women regarding mathematical ability, women just can’t handle or don’t like rigorous arguments, perhaps it’s time to consider that women just don’t like philosophy, or that they’re not as good as it as men, so of course the top jobs….
For some reason, the negative effects of the attitudes of senior philosophers towards the likely character traits of their female students on retention rates of said female students rarely comes up.
Not that I think that’s a complete explanation, or even one meant as more than a zinger; whatever leads to fewer female scientists and philosophers and engineers includes many factors, and the sensible thing to do would be to get up out of the armchair and… identify and eliminate such factors, if possible, as the House bill proposes. We shouldn’t need to prove that men and women have identical mathematical abilities to discuss how to remove systematic barriers to entry.
*I have a problem using “innate” ever since I overhead this conversation at an x-phi conference:
“We psychologists try not to say “nature vs. nurture.” “Why?” “Because it’s always wrong and it makes you look like a dumbass.”
33 comments
June 8, 2010 at 11:32 am
Laurel
Not to mention that what Larry Summers got in trouble for doing (so much trouble that he of course no longer has a job) is speculating with minimal information about innate gender differences to a crowd of people with actual expertise on the subject in question, while head of an institution with important policies on that subject which actually affect people’s lives.
I am willing to stipulate that it is possible that men and women have innate differences if we can stop talking about it and start getting rid of the gender bias we know exists. Which, in fact, is probably the best way to find out if there actually are gender differences.
June 8, 2010 at 12:12 pm
nick
Einstein (motherfckin EINSTEIN) said creativity is more important than knowledge.
Maybe we should listen to the guy whose physics literally altered the course of the world. Maybe…
June 8, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Nora Carrington
I went to a Seven Sisters women’s college in the 70s; 5 member Philosophy Dept. with one woman. I got a Ph.D. in Philosophy in 1990 [midwestern land grant; good, not “first rate” degree], got a tenure track job at a decent liberal arts college on my first try, published, got decent teaching evaluations, and left the tenure track job after 3 years when my colleagues made it clear they weren’t going to give me tenure. I got a 2 year contract -> tenure track job at a much better institution. I couldn’t/didn’t get the job when they did a national search for the permanent position*, and left academia only to find myself underemployed, apparently forever. I know of only one woman I went through graduate school with who’s in a tenured position as a Professor. There were about 15 of us.
The percentage of women in philosophy has remained utterly unchanged for the last 20 years, seems to me. Maybe the numbers in graduate school have gone up some, but 25% seems to be the unbreakable glass ceiling for working philosophers. 25% was the figure quoted to me by that first woman professor when I went to her for advice about going to graduate school. That was in 1979.
I can’t think of another profession where progress has been so slow/absent. The percentage of women in some of the hard sciences is lower, but there’s been more progress since 1970. Maybe 25% is that magic tipping point; anymore than that and the men might think they’re being infected by girl cooties. Fewer and adding some, even many, isn’t so threatening. Also, it increases the odds there will be cookies at dept. meetings.
*In my 2nd year of the two-year contract at the good school where I would have been delighted to have a career, I was diagnosed with PTSD as a consequence of the blind-siding rebuke I took in the 3rd-year review by my first colleagues; I don’t blame the good guys for not hiring me permanently as I was a barely functional zombie. I’ve worked since leaving academia as a paralegal; it’s how I put myself through college and graduate school and if I couldn’t have the brass ring I didn’t want any of it. Some jobs have been better than others.
June 8, 2010 at 12:53 pm
rea
It’s frustrating to find so many philosophers, of all people, believing that we think with our penises.
June 8, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Jonathan Jarrett
Let me tell you a story, if I may. When I started as an undergraduate in history at one of the big British universities, the undergraduate representatives were two very vocal women who had just decided to make the faculty’s ears burn about the fact that, for about as long as women had been admitted to the university for history, men had proportionally got most of the first-class degree results (and also the thirds). Now that women were about fifty per cent of the enrolment, this was a considerable issue. And the faculty trotted out all these unthinking stereotypes you’ve mentioned above, and some extras about men being more willing than women to take chances and show flair, what some people called the ‘bullshit factor’ without apparently realising that what this meant was they were rewarding baseless arrogance in exams. And nothing was actually done. So the undergraduate reps held meetings and postered every available surface and still nothing was really done. A committee was established, and reported a summary of the stereotypes without having done any actual research.
And then the next year the results showed a strong tendency towards equalisation. The faculty reps were replaced, but the same thing happened the year after: not complete balance, but far more women getting firsts (and thirds) than had proportionally been the case before. And people started to say that the problem was awareness, that what needed to be done was just to inform everyone that there was a problem of balance and incoming students would strive to defeat it, or in other words that the faculty didn’t have to do anything. And the next year after that the results snapped back to the previous pattern but by then the irritating protesting women had left so no-one made any noise about it that the faculty couldn’t ignore. And in fact many people did show concern and stress the need for more female role-models in the faculty etc., but what never happened was any actual research into the issue, as far as I know, and it’s just a bit shameful. So I’m afraid this all surprises me less than it should. The problem is of course that no-one who would have to commission this research is sure what the outcome might be and therefore what the risks to their own career are…
June 8, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Vance
Nora asks,
I can’t think of another profession where progress has been so slow/absent.
Computer science?
June 8, 2010 at 2:58 pm
Tyler
I think there is a strong argument to be made that sexism from fellow students makes certain disciplines unpleasant for women. I’ve certainly seen it in some technical classes I’ve taken in the past.
June 8, 2010 at 6:08 pm
kid bitzer
this is sort of a side note, but worth setting straight:
“what Larry Summers got in trouble for doing (so much trouble that he of course no longer has a job)…”
it really just is not true that summers got canned because of his stupid remarks about women in science.
summers got canned because he was a horrible manager who was really bad at his job. he managed to piss off a huge number of harvard faculty, many of whom don’t give a damn about women at all, and are happy to embrace sexist bullshit of the kind summers was peddling.
he got canned because he was an arrogant sob in an institution full of arrogant sobs, and he had no idea how to negotiate those waters. he thought he was a big shark, not knowing that there were bigger sharks who knew the waters better.
he also said some really stupid things about “innate gender differences”. and the fact that he was fired some time after that led a lot of people to conclude that the horrible feminazis had claimed another scalp and doesn’t that just show how the libruls have taken over the universities and feminists are ruining everything so that an honest man can’t even speak the honest truth without being afraid of being hounded out of office by the ferocious feminists.
meanwhile, the real powers at harvard who engineered his exit got to laugh twice, because they didn’t like summers, and they generally don’t like female academics either.
that’s why it’s important to get clear about why summers lost his job. the bullshit remarks on gender had very, very little to do with it.
June 8, 2010 at 7:26 pm
M. Carey
Remember, academia is the last outpost of the feudal system; It will take a bit of time to re-orient from the 13th Century.
June 8, 2010 at 7:38 pm
Hunter
Yeah, philosophers aren’t mathematicians, but computer scientists almost are. Which is irrelevant because Emmy Noether (and others!).
June 8, 2010 at 9:04 pm
Chris
women just can’t handle or don’t like rigorous arguments, perhaps it’s time to consider that women just don’t like philosophy
Either of these could fairly plausibly be spun into a way to get *philosophy departments* off the hook by claiming that the damage had already been done by early childhood socialization (telling them, even if not in so many words, not to rigorously argue and/or express an interest in philosophy) and the majority of women had already been shaped into a form unsuited to philosophy before they ever set foot in a philosophy department.
It might even be true.
June 9, 2010 at 2:55 am
ac
I was recently reading something by a woman mathematician who mentioned that when she was at Stanford, in 1999, there were no women’s bathrooms in the math department. None at all. She was reminded of how marginal she was every time she had to pee.
When she went back, in 2005, someone had tacked on a handwritten “Wo” on the door of the men’s bathrooms, and put flower pots in the urinals.
June 9, 2010 at 4:46 am
dana
It might even be true.
Suppose that it’s true (it might well be) that philosophy is such a bloodsport that women are inadequately socialized to handle it, or are socialized in such a way that they’d rather not put up with the nonsense when there are professions where they can be just as smart and analytic and be respected. Why should that be an argument that “gets the department off the hook” rather than an indictment of the culture of the profession? (It’s philosophy! Enduring questions of human existence! And the way we practice it isn’t relevant to half the population just in virtue of their gender!*)
One man’s modus ponens is another man’s boot to the head.
*not that it’s really relevant to anyone else, but….
June 9, 2010 at 4:55 am
kid bitzer
bitzer you moron, have you ever heard of sarcasm?
laurel did *not* say that summers lost his job at harvard because he got into big trouble for his remarks on gender.
laurel’s point, made sarcastically, was that summers got into so *little* trouble for his remarks on gender, that he is now part of the presidential cabinet.
so your entire rant was beside the point, and had nothing to do with laurel’s comment.
sheesh.
June 9, 2010 at 9:47 am
ac
Suppose that it’s true
Yeah, there are two problems problems with the assertiveness training model—the model in which women are required to become more direct/assertive/confrontational in order to survive in male environments. The first is that even if it’s true that there is a substantive difference in the way men and women talk, then you are putting all of the burden on the historically disadvantaged party to change, and none on the people who actually have power in the situation.
But the second, more fundamental problem is that when linguists actually study how men and women talk, they find no evidence for substantive difference at all. As I’ve mentioned here before, what linguists come up with are mostly superficial differences, driven by men’s desire to differentiate themselves from women and assume higher status.
June 9, 2010 at 10:01 am
ac
About the math, though, I came across one theory suggesting that the problem is the generally poor standard for math instruction. It is taught in a very dry, memorization-driven way, and in more “gifted” environments teachers compensate for the dryness of the material by…going through it very quickly. As though that helps matters.
Math as it is taught tends to be highly cue-based as well. As in, I know we’re studying Equation Z this week, and the textbook here has given me three numbers, so maybe I’ll just trying plugging them all into Z just like the example in the book, and hey, maybe I’ll get an answer that makes some sense; who knows? This becomes a problem when you encounter the math in a different, less cue-filled context, such as standardized tests—or math in the real world.
So the underlying issue, according to this theory, is that no one understands the math they’re taught all that well—unless they’re doing a lot of more interesting puzzles and open practice on the side—and girls are the only ones to admit this, because their of historically different math identity. They’re not going to pretend to understand stuff that they actually feel a bit shaky about.
June 9, 2010 at 10:54 am
lt
dana @4:46, that’s an incredibly perceptive comment – while the arguments about assertiveness and math abilities are most often flawed and counterproductive, I do think there is something to the notion that women, and other historically marginalized groups, at the graduate level might be drawn to fields of study that have less of a fetish for abstraction and have done a better job absorping the experiences of different groups into their methodologies – becaue of our experiences, not because of genetics, of course.
June 9, 2010 at 9:34 pm
Lurker
lt,
I’m not a mathematician, but Mathematics was a minor of my Master’s degree. I’d like to note that math at academic level most often does not involve solving equations. Solving equations, at least here in Europe, is a skill learned at high school. At university level, exercises and test problems mostly involve the construction of proofs for different theorems. (This means, well beyond American Calculus etc.)
June 9, 2010 at 9:43 pm
Vance
Lurker, I can’t figure out what you’re responding to. I don’t think anyone mentioned equations — nor is it clear that focusing on proofs helps clarify anything about the position of women.
June 9, 2010 at 11:21 pm
andrew
How American is American Calculus? It’s as American as Indiana Pi.
June 9, 2010 at 11:56 pm
dave
“American” Calculus? Is that the polite word for “easy”?
June 10, 2010 at 2:58 am
ac
He’s responding to me. If it’s not clear, I was talking about high school level math. Lots of people—most importantly, for this discussion, lots of girls who might actually be pretty good at it—don’t get to university level math because they are so turned off by the subject at the lower levels. And the study I pulled that theory from was British. It’s not purely an American phenomenon.
June 10, 2010 at 3:12 am
ac
Or she’s.
June 10, 2010 at 3:14 am
kid bitzer
let lt=ac.
June 10, 2010 at 6:01 am
dana
ac, I’m not sure that study helps your case. It shows that contrary to popular belief, both men and women engage in gossip (understood as non-task-related conversation that promotes bonding or something like that )in comparable amounts, but in different ways.
That might speak to the exclusion of women, no? Imagine a student lounge full of men doing the frathouse thing and one woman trying to fit in. I suspect a ‘superficial difference driven by the need to differentiate themselves from women’ might be sufficient to create an atmosphere where female students don’t feel like they fit in.
June 10, 2010 at 7:20 am
Vance
I see, I think. Sure, it’s a pretty different subject in university and high school. This explains, I think, why after being pretty good at high-school math, I dropped out after a few weeks of differential equations and moved over to computer science, while a good school friend made the reverse journey. But it doesn’t explain why women should be more likely to be interested in one style of work than another.
June 10, 2010 at 8:15 am
ac
Dana, I don’t think I’m making the case you think I’m making. Of course it speaks to the exclusion of women. That’s the point. It’s just not the *substantive* difference women are often charged with having, innate or socialized differences in “directness.”
Vance, the idea is that, because women don’t have the same confidence in math that boys do, because historically they’ve been told they are bad at it and don’t get the same support, the same experience—of going quickly through fairly boring material—registers as just that, instead of some kind of game that you have to get through. Which appears to be what happens to a lot of boys.
June 10, 2010 at 9:03 am
Vance
OK, then I don’t understand why the change in the sort of work people do in math classes matters. If high-school math were like university-level math, presumably the lack of support would discourage women too.
June 10, 2010 at 9:38 am
ac
If the underlying experience changes, if the material gets less boring, if teachers actually seem to care whether kids understand or not, girls do better. Or so (some) research seems to suggest. (It’s controversial; I’m just presenting something I’ve read about.)
Supposedly girls respond to “open” coursework. That is, problems in which there are potentially a lot of right answers. For instance, instead of saying, I have a cube here with a side of x tell me what the volume is, you say what sort of shapes could I come up with that have volume x? Then it’s more of a process of figuring out different answers and playing around with possibilities and—if you’re doing group work as well—talking to other people about the math involved and asking questions and getting feedback, &c. &c.
June 10, 2010 at 9:47 am
ac
And it’s not that boys don’t like open coursework, because that’s the sort of thing a boy who is good at math does on his own time, to get even better. It’s just bringing the actually *fun* part of math into the classroom, rather than pushing it all into the margins. And that makes sense on its own merits, separate from the gender issue.
June 11, 2010 at 6:13 am
Ray Davis
An anecdotal contribution from software engineering (AKA computer programming): When I’ve worked in environments free of affirmative-action-type initiatives, female colleagues were few (and with all the usual justifications). When I’ve worked in environments that took affirmative-action seriously, somehow extremely talented female colleagues started showing up. (By far my most important mentor was Susan Barrett, back at Digital Equipment Corp. in NYC.)
Programming, like Anglo-American academic philosophy, is a job which requires pretty much nothing in the way of math skills, but which holds a place for the sort of combative socially inept types who often major in math. And most cultures seem a bit more open to accepting boys as combative socially inept types — girls get fewer opportunities to indulge pseudo-autism. If there’s a wide-spread gender-link to career choices, I’d suggest looking there rather than at the high end of math SATs.
June 14, 2010 at 12:47 pm
chris
Why should that be an argument that “gets the department off the hook” rather than an indictment of the culture of the profession?
Well, I guess you need the extra assumption that the relevant aspects of the culture of the profession are a necessary byproduct of the substance of the profession itself, and not something the profession does just for kicks.
Which is certainly questionable in its own right, but seems somewhat different from the gender question (although not totally disconnected).
If philosophy is necessarily (as opposed to gratuitously) an intellectual arena, then ISTM that any option other than equally arming the women is doomed to fail.
P.S. My final line “It might even be true” was not intended sarcastically to mean “It is definitely true, and anyone who disputes it is a fool”, in case anyone read it that way. I don’t claim to know the source(s) of the scarcity of women in professional philosophy. But enculturation is early and pervasive so it seems like as good a starting point as any.
June 15, 2010 at 3:35 am
ac
Honestly, linguistic study after study finds it’s the context, not the women. There’s a well-known study of the House of Commons – a place more raucous than any philosophy department – which found that there is no difference in the *kind* of statements the women make, just the number. And that’s not because the women are more timid, it’s because they are penalized at ten times the rate of men for parliamentary rule-breaking.