A reader writes in to ask what I do about students who talk during my lectures. It’s a good question, as the problem seems to be getting worse the longer I teach. Whether I’m getting more boring (likely), my students are getting more unruly (perhaps), or the classroom culture is becoming more and more like the comments section of Matthew Yglesias’s blog (I doubt it, but maybe), I don’t really know.
As for the question, at the beginning of every quarter I talk to my students about my expectations of them, including my desire that they not talk during lecture. Honestly, I no longer care if they sleep, read, or surf the web. So long as they don’t keep other people in the class from listening to me and maybe learning (I can dream, right?), and so long as they’re somewhat respectful of me, we’re cool. Which is to say, I prefer that they not snore loudly while sleeping or make a big show of reading their friends’ facebook pages. Other than that, though, whatevs.
But a few years back, I singled out some backward-ball-cap-wearing kewl kidz for repeatedly talking and laughing during classes in the latter part of the term. They were recidivists, in other words, and should have known better. They had initially ignored my subtle looks and later my not-so-subtle glares. And they were clearly going to keep up their shenanigans until I smacked them down. So I did. I didn’t say anything too terribly harsh, something along the lines of, “Please stop talking during class. It’s incredibly hard for me to concentrate when you guys behave in this way.” And they stopped. For the rest of the term. Mission accomplished, right?
Well, I later wished that I had talked to them individually*, as the punishment — public humiliation — seemed to outstrip the crime. So since then, I’ve either tried to pull people aside after class or make an announcement, to the whole room, without looking at the offending parties, during my lecture: “You’ll recall that on the first day I said that I really can’t stand it when people talk during class. Please try to keep that in mind, okay.” And that seems to do the trick. But I’m open to new ideas, as the older I get, the more crowded my lawn seems to become.
* Of course I felt guilty. Because I always feel guilty. (Seriously, always. It never stops.) Put another way, one’s approach to classroom management is almost certainly going to vary depending on one’s personality. Not to mention one’s gender, which obviously has a huge impact on how one approaches these issues. So while I’m a guilt-ridden Jew, I’m also a relatively big** guy, which means that I probably have to deal with less of this crap than many other people out there do.
** Fine, fat. You’re so mean. This is supposed to be a safe space, you know.
34 comments
January 14, 2010 at 11:47 am
kevin
I only call out students for talking when they’ve caused repeated distractions — for me and for the surrounding students — and unlike you, I don’t feel the slightest bit of regret about it. It’s rude, and they deserve to be called out for it.
But your asterisky aside at the end, about how students respond to our efforts to open up a can of Foucault on them depends on who we are (or seem to be, to them), is a good one.
I usually have to call out someone at least once a semester, even after repeated stare-downs. Last fall, the two were, like yours, a pair of recidivists. They had repeatedly talked and laughed their way not just through the lectures in a large hall where they might have assumed some sense of anonymity, but also through their discussion section where that kind of thing was even ruder.
Their TA was a sweet, thoughtful woman for whom they’d made life hell. They never heeded her repeated interventions, which she made first privately and then in class when the disruptions continued. But for some reason — my status as the professor, the larger public venue, my gender, my size, or perhaps even the aura I must give off as a former bartender and bouncer who is still not above going all Roadhouse on someone — they sure as hell listened to me.
Ultimately, I think professors have a duty to maintain order in their classrooms.
The good students — and it’s hard to remember sometimes, that many if not most of them are good students, as we focus on the troublemakers — the good students need us not just to intervene, but to see that intervention to make it clear that we understand what’s going on out there. Calling out a troublemaker serves not just to knock that student down, but more importantly to raise up the students who are acting properly. In any case, I’m not going to worry about further embarrassing someone who’s already making an ass out of themselves.
And moreover, our TAs need to see that we have their backs, especially ones who feel that the students don’t respect them as much as they respect us for reasons of age/gender/experience. Too often, professors only want to be the good cop, when we’re the only ones who can play bad cop when the situation demands it.
January 14, 2010 at 11:48 am
kevin
Wow, that was longer than I realized. Sorry for the thesis.
January 14, 2010 at 11:55 am
Erik
Public humiliation seems entirely appropriate to me. I don’t think it outweighs the crime at all. They are probably bothering other people around them too.
I frequently use public humiliation for texting in class (by which I just stop and tell the person to stop) and I find it works pretty well.
January 14, 2010 at 12:05 pm
heydave
Public humiliation is an overly strong term, it seems to me. I would wager that some young person who gets challenged on their behavior would more likely be annoyed that you actually felt that way and said something as opposed to them feeling shameful of their actions.
Here in this college town, I freely point out that being young and irrepressible is “precocious” when you’re younger than 18, borderline “cute” when you’re 18-21, and “just being a dick” when you are over 21.
January 14, 2010 at 12:22 pm
Kieran
First lecture in a new course as of this morning, as it happens. I’m usually pretty cranky at the beginning. If there’s conversation, I call them out and tell them to shut up. If that’s humiliation, the Frats aren’t doing their job.
January 14, 2010 at 12:28 pm
delagar
I yell at students, in class, really loudly: “Hey! Hey! HEY!! I’M TALKING NOW!!”
But (a) I’m a woman (b) I have a kind of a reputation for playing/ludic behavior in the classroom (c) I don’t do this with a student I think might be crushed by being yelled at.
I’ve found that, except for ADHD students, I hardly ever have to yell at them more than once or twice a semester.
January 14, 2010 at 12:34 pm
bitchphd
Backwards-hat fratty types totally deserve public humiliation. I’m actually not joking.
January 14, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Rob_in_Hawaii
Yes, public humiliation has its place but I really don’t see politely asking someone who is exhibiting rude behavior to stop as particularly “humiliating.”
January 14, 2010 at 12:53 pm
Rob_in_Hawaii
Like you, Ari, I am a big man and that seems to have a way of keeping these problems from popping up in the first place. Go figure.
Before coming to academia I was in trucking for 20 years and can go full metal teamster on a bunch of gabby 18-21 year-old kewl kids if need be. I prefer, though, to shout out something like, “Could you two please be quiet? Some folks in the back are trying to sleep.” It gets a laugh and gets them to shut up too.
January 14, 2010 at 12:58 pm
ari
“Could you two please be quiet? Some folks in the back are trying to sleep.”
This is very good, I think. My problem, when I used the public scolding method, was that I did it far too earnestly. Which had two downfalls: one, I don’t do earnest very well, so the juxtaposition from my usual mien to solemnity was somewhat jarring; and two, that jarring juxtaposition had the unfortunate effect of letting my students see me sweat, which is never a good thing, especially in situations like that.
January 14, 2010 at 1:20 pm
CaliFury
My graduate classes are small, sometimes only five students. So, when they sleep I notice and when they talk it is generally to themselves, so I tend to leave them alone.
As to humiliation, my understanding is that “embarrassment” would be a better description of what might have happened. It was no secret that the students were talking. In my lexicon, “humiliation” comes from either abuse or from the public revelation of a “secret shame.” The public calling to account for a public act could easily cause embarrassment (or rage, depending on the student) but I wouldn’t expect humiliation.
On the other hand, I suppose it is possible that being reminded to follow the rules could cause humiliation from perceived abuse in our culture. We are each very special, after all.
January 14, 2010 at 1:39 pm
kid bitzer
interesting. i don’t have this problem so much, because very few of those who are registered actually attend.
what; do you require attendance at your lectures?
January 14, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Rob_in_Hawaii
I “don’t do earnest well” either. I think most of my students would be waiting for the punch line, thinking it was just another goofy comment I was throwing out there but with a deadpan delivery.
And you’re right about not letting them see you sweat. If that small minority sees that their talking during lecture gets under your skin they might be tempted to continue doing it for some kind of bad boy thrill.
Better to call attention to their bad behavior with a bit of humor while still letting them know it’s your class and you’re not going to allow them to disrupt it. The iron fist in the kid glove kind of thing. For repeated offenses, of course, the gloves comes off.
January 14, 2010 at 2:17 pm
PorJ
I use the silent treatment. Its pretty simple. You just stop talking and look at them. The room quiets down quickly. Then you stay silent. And you look (not glare) at them – and others. The room gets eerily quiet and uncomfortable – you can hear a pin drop – they think you’re a psycho. Lots of students get embarrassed for the talkers and themselves. Stay quiet and resist your own temptation to break the unbearable silence. They key is to prolong the agony.
After a few minutes: “Good. Now, as I was saying.”
I usually only have to do this once a semester. But if the problem continues, I’ll go after ’em later. Make them feel guilty: “Frankly, I’m not sure why you’re wasting your tuition money by talking over my lecture.” Or, what also gets me, is the packing-up-the-backpack 5 (or 10!) minutes before lecture lets out. For that I simply go quiet, then say: “Go ahead. We’ll all wait until you’ve left to conclude today’s class – no reason to stick around, your notes are packed!”
The sadism in me alleviates the guilt.
I’ve been wanting to try the “talk quietly” treatment but haven’t done it yet. Modulate the volume down a little by little, until I’m speaking in just a whisper, and see what happens. I read this quote in an interview:
If you want your kids to listen to you, don’t yell at them. Whisper. Make them lean in. My kids taught me that. And I do it with adults now.
And I tried it on my two little boys. It really works! So at the appropriate time maybe I’ll give it a whirl in a lecture. Either that I’ll buy a taser.
January 14, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Colin
What I do is pretty close to PorJ. I’m mainly using my ability to to make extended silence, which also helps me stay cool. I’ll sometimes ask if they have a question, and wait for everyone involved to respond.
The other large point is zero tolerance: squelch problems at once, rather than hoping they get better because the won’t. The offenders are offenders *because* they don’t pick up on hints.
One reason I have zero guilt doing this is that over the years I’ve gotten several thanks on course evals from hard-of-hearing students for silencing distracting chatter.
January 14, 2010 at 4:59 pm
kevin
what; do you require attendance at your lectures?
No, and I even make a point in the first lecture of noting that and telling students if they’re tired they should stay home and if they’re bored and want to talk with their friends, no harm.
And yet still there’s a small percentage who come in and just start chatting away. I think they believe they can absorb knowledge by osmosis.
“Could you two please be quiet? Some folks in the back are trying to sleep.”
Yeah, I’m stealing that.
January 14, 2010 at 5:24 pm
kevin
if they’re bored and want to talk with their friends and would rather go elsewhere, no harm.
Fixed.
January 14, 2010 at 5:40 pm
Matt
I’m a bit more sympathetic on the “packing up the notes” thing, as there’s been many a time when I’ve had back-to-back classes with little time, and there’s no way I can sit through two classes w/o stopping by the bathroom. So, if a professor goes right up to the end in that situation, I’ve had to really be ready to run. So long as people don’t make a bit show of it I don’t mind. (Don’t get me started on professors who go beyond the end of the period, especially when I have to teach in that class next. That’s really as rude as people speaking in class, but lots of folks do it habitually.)
January 14, 2010 at 5:41 pm
Michael Cross
Maybe it is a Canadian thing, but I have had this problem no more than a handful of times in 45 years -I’m retired but still doing some teaching because I like it.
On the other hand, I do find some of the “us vs them” tone in comments here to be sad.
January 14, 2010 at 5:58 pm
THE CON
In my undergraduate days I had three incidents where I yelled at a fellow student for talking in class. In one case I asked a professor to stop taking role so the students would stop showing up to talk and Facebook in class.
January 14, 2010 at 6:09 pm
Sir Charles
Were those students also wearing jeans that hung below their underwear?
– Steve Sailer
January 14, 2010 at 6:18 pm
Sir Charles
Speaking of discipline and punish — and I usually am — have you considered reading the opening section of that fine tome describing the torture and execution of Robert-Francois Damiens and suggesting that it is being incorporated into the university code of conduct as the appropriate treatment for in-class talking?
Or you could try the ever subtle — hey, shut the fuck up.
January 14, 2010 at 7:12 pm
Mark Cyr
I don’t think public humiliation is so bad. I can remember one professor eviscerating one absent student by saying, “I think I’m going to die, not only has Mr. Doe graced us with his presence today, but he’s going to dare to answer a question.”
Another (who was routinely awarded teaching awards voted on by students) made a habit of calling on those students who appeared to be dozing and asking them to sum up the previous 10 minutes of lecture. He also reprimanded those who were late by asking them to simply leave since, as he put it, “I have enough respect for you to show up on time, I don’t believe it’s too much to ask for that to be reciprocated.”
January 14, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Rob_in_Hawaii
Doing the “public humiliation” thing in cases of tardiness or absenteeism can be problematic. Like their professors, students often lead complicated and difficult lives.
I’m not talking about the stoner who can’t put the bong down long enough to make it to class. Instead, I’m talking about students with childcare issues, legitimate health problems, and other unforeseen circumstances that, if they were happening to us, we would wish that someone would cut us some slack.
Several years ago I made a snide remark about a student in front of class about her “finally showing up for class after a week or two.” This ended up with her bawling her eyes out as she recited a litany of woes that included, among other things, a dead uncle and a sick dog (although it might have been a sick uncle and a dead dog). She was shaking she was crying so hard, her mascara ran and ran down her cheeks.
It took a long time to calm things down and I looked like a heartless jerk. Since then I’ve been pretty good about finding out what’s going on before I bring out the sarcasm.
BTW, best (verified) excuse ever: “I can’t make it to the exam Friday because I think I’m being indicted for attempted murder.” No public humiliation for him!
January 14, 2010 at 10:14 pm
Megan
I used to walk over next to the talkers and continue the lecture from right by their chairs. I might rest a hand on one of their shoulders as I talked.
I had one wonderful teacher who would call everyone out for anything.
“Megan, you are late but I am glad you are here.”
“Megan, I did not see your homework from yesterday, but I know you will bring it to me tomorrow.”
She ran through the all the details for each of us every day before she started teaching. She was, like, 4’11”, completely terrifying and awesome. Loved her.
January 15, 2010 at 1:08 am
dave
The main thing is to remember that it’s your job, in the interests of everyone present, to command the room. Figuring how you do that is a big part of learning to teach. And it can mean anything from being a ‘shut-the-fuck-up’-yeller to a whisperer, and involve any kind of activity from straight I-yack-you-listen to group debates and student presentations. But if you don’t command the room, everyone is losing.
Or, put another way, in the immortal words handed down through generations of ER docs, ‘You set the tone’.
January 15, 2010 at 6:33 am
dana
Doing the “public humiliation” thing in cases of tardiness or absenteeism can be problematic.
I can’t imagine calling someone out in class for not being there… hehe. More seriously, I think this is right. If the goal of calling someone out is to ensure that there are no distractions from the lecture, then calling someone out should not itself be a distraction. If someone’s been tardy or absent, that can wait until after class. (Plus, you never know when the answer to “why haven’t you been here?” is “my psychiatrist has been adjusting my medication and it makes me very sleepy.”)
January 15, 2010 at 6:38 am
kid bitzer
“I have enough respect for you to show up on time, I don’t believe it’s too much to ask for that to be reciprocated.”
this is why i have extremely low expectations for my students’ classroom comportment, intellectual engagement, and even mere bodily presence. i need them to be reciprocated.
January 15, 2010 at 8:08 am
Ahistoricality
this is why i have extremely low expectations for my students’ classroom comportment, intellectual engagement, and even mere bodily presence. i need them to be reciprocated.
Kid Bitzer, for the win.
January 15, 2010 at 8:55 am
rosmar
Yeah, that was funny.
I do the subtle look followed by less subtle look followed by “shh!” while looking at them followed by (if necessary–“shh!” usually works) “Excuse me. There is side talking, which is distracting to me and I’m sure to other people.”
The few times that hasn’t stopped it, I’ve emailed the students who were doing the talking and had them meet with me in person, which has so far never failed.
(On the sleeping in class thing–I had a student that I awakened in class, and asked her to stay after, and it turned out that her mom had lost her job so the student was working nights to help pay the rent. I felt like a jerk for embarrassing her in class. But also, it turned out she needed to drop out of school for the semester–she needed to sleep sometimes.)
January 15, 2010 at 9:35 am
PorJ
On a related tangent: What if the public humiliation is totally, completely, undeserved? Here’s an example from my undergraduate days:
I had a world-famous professor on the political history of Eastern Europe at an Ivy University. He was old, cranky, but with a terrific sense of humor. This survey/lecture course had about 50 or 70 students in it. I was an athlete, and I sat next to a teammate in class every day, in the same seats in the middle of the classroom. We never chatted or anything (my teammate was an excellent scholar), and were otherwise unremarkable. One day, in the middle of the lecture, he stops and points right at me. “You! Who are YOU?!” he says. I look to my right and left – why’s he yelling at me? So I say my name. He says: “Well, I’m not going to call you that. I’m going to call you HALEY because you show up about as often as Haley’s Comet!” and then immediately steps right back into the lecture as though nothing had happened.
I literally attended every day and sat in the same seat. It was bizarre, to say the least. There was a lot of laughter at my expense, both in the class and later.
Luckily, the name Haley did not stick and I did fine in the course.
January 15, 2010 at 11:28 am
Vance
No doubt you did something else to deserve it. Think harder.
January 15, 2010 at 8:09 pm
Jeremy
I’m not a uni-level teacher, but the customs for disciplining middle-school students in Japan are very different from the USA. There’s little to no calling students out in class, most teachers are too terrified of the dread PTA to do anything too severe. Not to mention that children have a constitutional right to an education, so you can’t really throw them out of the classroom.
Working as an ALT, it’s interesting – and not a bit maddening – to behold.
I’ve an interest in university-level teaching, I wonder what it’s like here.
(I was usually pretty good in uni, though I dozed off occasionally)
January 17, 2010 at 7:28 pm
Spiny Norman
They’re talking in public. QED.