People keep pushing the 70-minute Phantom Menace video review at me. After all, Damon Lindelof thinks it’s great. And if you have seventy minutes and really don’t mind a creepy persona explaining to you why George Lucas messed up so badly, be my guest. For the record, though, my concern with the Star Wars prequels is not that they’re bad movies, they’re immoral stories. And it will take you less than seventy minutes to read why. And it will probably be less creepy.
People my age or older met Darth Vader as a callous murderer and an agent of genocide. He killed his mentor. He tortured Princess Leia and Han Solo. He was the embodiment of man’s corruption by machinery, a soulless monster willing to degrade his own son by recruiting him to the Dark Side. That’s who Vader was through The Empire Strikes Back.
Things started to go wrong with Return of the Jedi, in which Vader goes to Jedi heaven. Why? Because he balked at participating in his son’s murder. Wait, what? That’s enough to redeem an adult lifetime of complete evil? Jedi St. Peter: “Right, well, on the one hand he tortured his daughter. But on the other hand, he declined to murder his son. Eh, let him in.” Where’s the bar? Would he have got into Jedi heaven for refusing to drown kittens?
Obviously this whole tendency to let Vader off the hook is greatly worsened in the prequels, where we meet Vader as a kitten cute little kid. Look, maybe little Hitler was completely adorable, but you’re not going to make an Indiana Jones prequel about cute lil Hitler. (You’re not, are you George?)
Yet Lucas does the moral equivalent here. So maybe, as creepy reviewer guy says, it’s a bad movie (I’ve tried to block it out of my memory). But it’s a wicked movie, too: it’s actively trying to enlist your sympathies on behalf of evil.
Now, suppose you’re a bit younger; suppose you’ve seen the movies in narrative order. One could argue that Lucas has structured the saga as the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, who starts out a cute kid and becomes Darth Vader. And I suppose, to be charitable, this is what he meant to do.
But he’s doing tragedy wrong. Macbeth would not work better if Shakespeare had written an opening scene where 8 year-old Macbeth gets beaten by his father. We appreciate Macbeth’s nobility and greatness because it’s attested and we see it enacted. And this is why we wince at his collusion in his own demise: he is a great man whose ambition is corrupting him. And—this is important—even though he’s great, he doesn’t get off the hook. We don’t see him redeemed, because that’s not how tragedy works: rather, his destruction is our redemption.
Here Lucas’s failure is partly a matter of culture and craft as much as intention. Hollywood specifically and America generally demand our sympathy for wronged children, so seeing Darth Vader as a wronged child excuses his career of criminality. It’s possible, too, that we might feel more about the young man Anakin as we do about Macbeth if Hayden Christensen could act better or Lucas had given him better material.
But culture and craft aside, I think there’s still a problem of intention. Lucas started out as a rebel against the authoritarian Bad Father. That’s what his movies were about, back before they were about the awesomeness of CGI.1 (For Chrissake: “Darth Vader”? Dark Father, right?)
Except at some point Lucas seems to have decided that Bad Daddy wasn’t really bad, just misunderstood. (That this realization seems to have come when Lucas himself became a rich, powerful authority figure is surely coincidental.) So he had to redeem Darth Vader, whatever the narrative cost.
Lucas had one success with redeeming the Bad Father, in the third Indiana Jones movie. But here, the father character exhibits a certain disappointing remoteness and sternness—unfortunate, and perhaps paternal failings, but crimes well short of genocide. What’s more, the scene between the junior and senior Jones over how they never had a decent father-son relation is really nicely acted and written:
Professor Henry Jones: Actually, I was a wonderful father.
Indiana Jones: When?
Professor Henry Jones: Did I ever tell you to eat up? Go to bed? Wash your ears? Do your homework? No. I respected your privacy and I taught you self-reliance.
Indiana Jones: What you taught me was that I was less important to you than people who had been dead for five hundred years in another country. And I learned it so well that we’ve hardly spoken for twenty years.
Professor Henry Jones: You left just when you were becoming interesting.
I hope, for Lucas’s sake, he had something to do with that scene.
I’m sure that the father-son themes of Lucas’s earlier movies appealed to me when I was young. (I liked Ernest Hemingway’s short stories, too.) And I would like my son to like those movies; I would like him to feel that even though I spend my days with people who have been long dead, I can still find him interesting.
But I don’t want him to think that anything I do is explicable by something that happened to me in my childhood, or that my willingness to protect him would excuse all manner of crimes. So I’m not prepared to let him watch Lucas’s more recent movies, even if the special effects are fantastic.
1How odd that someone who made movies about the evils of machine civilization should have become the champion of machine-made movies.
73 comments
February 4, 2010 at 9:40 am
kevin
I heard that the original title for Return of the Jedi was All Darths Go to Heaven.
February 4, 2010 at 9:50 am
NM
This is all wrong.
February 4, 2010 at 9:53 am
Bourgeois Nerd
Lucas has said that his conception of the whole Star Wars saga was the decline and fall and then redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Of course when to make us want the redemption, you have to make him more than a petulant, and utterly stupid, brat, which Lucas didn’t bother to do in lieu of more Jar Jar. But I think Lucas’ whole moral underpinning for Star Wars, in the prequels, was all kinds of messed up. I mean, he made the “good guys,” the Jedi, a bunch of dicks.
February 4, 2010 at 10:13 am
Miranda
Don’t get me started on what’s wrong with the prequels. They definitely don’t adequately sketch the moral downfall of Vader–Anakin gets played like a violin by the emperor and basically goes insane overnight partially due to romantic jealousy. Killing all the padouins? usually people have to work their way up to killing a bunch of kids. We see that he’s a hothead with rage issues, but I don’t see the ambition or lust for power that would seemingly drive the Lord Vader we see in the original movies. Also, in the first 3 movies, Vader seems like a cold, soulless monster–“more machine than man”–yet we see that Anakin can’t control his anger. Basically, Lucas’ sense of how the dark side of the Force works seems inconsistant, and he doesn’t have a good grasp of character. You’re right–Macbeth it’s not. But we have seen similar stories–the fall of Michael Corleone, Tony Soprano, etc. The story of how Anakin Skywalker–a cunning fighter and excellent pilot–became Darth Vader could have been fascinating. Instead it basically destroyed the value of the original movies.
February 4, 2010 at 10:20 am
eric
I do think the story of Michael Corleone counts as a tragedy—fated demise of a virtuous man owing to a terrible flaw. Though Tony Soprano not so much—we never see him fall, do we? He’s already low.
February 4, 2010 at 10:28 am
NM
Though isn’t MacBeth one of the less nuanced characters in the Shakespeare universe?
I think it’s useful to separate the flaws that are in the details– bad character development, bad writing, etc.– from the flaws of the arc writ large. I don’t mind that the tragedic conventions are violated, because there can be good drama that’s not classical tragedy in its outlines.
February 4, 2010 at 10:29 am
eric
there can be good drama that’s not classical tragedy in its outlines
Sure, but if your story is how a good character goes bad owing to a flaw in his makeup, you’re trying to tell a tragic story, aren’t you?
February 4, 2010 at 10:32 am
kid bitzer
or a cosmo story, depending on the flaw and the makeup.
February 4, 2010 at 10:38 am
NM
trying to tell a tragic story
In the loose sense of tragedy, yes, but in that sense it’s not a problem if the story ends with the protagonist high instead of low. In the strict sense, no, because it’s constitutive of being tragic in this sense that the story follows the usual arc.
February 4, 2010 at 10:57 am
Sam-I-am
How old is your son?
If good parenting requires not showing your children bad examples, then call child services, I bought my son the Twilight series.
and I read them. In my defense, it is truly fascinating to analyze the conflicting influences of Mormon doctrine, Mormon culture, and American culture in the novels.
But seriously, you’re in trouble if you actually believe you can raise children without them witnessing the inconsistencies — and inconstancies — of cultural imperatives.
February 4, 2010 at 11:13 am
dana
I’m in agreement with NM, and I think the story of how Anakin Skywalker turned into Darth Vader could have been fascinating. Instead he basically commits a probably justifiable homicide and then inexplicably follows it up with murdering a bunch of children. I mean, look, thirteen-year-old Star Wars geeks in the early 90s had better ideas about how Vader came about.
I don’t think it’s a serious knock against it that Vader gets redeemed in the end. That just means that the tragic demise has to happen sooner, i.e., at the end of the third prequel. The problem was that the tragic arc sucked, and there was really no way to retcon A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back into a redemption arc.
February 4, 2010 at 11:17 am
NM
All of this is a really vivid reminder of how the prequels’ basic arc (Horatio Alger of the Force, romantic obsession, moral downfall) could have made for really watchable movies. But, JarJar.
February 4, 2010 at 11:23 am
Vance
At some point, one’s kids will presumably be old enough that one can encourage them to watch flawed movies in order to think about them. This is Sam-I-am’s point, I think; though the green ham he bears is (in the frame of that story) revealed as something plainly good.
February 4, 2010 at 11:25 am
Erik Lund
Tragic protagonists can be redeemed even by authors who haven’t gone Hollywood. Oedipus at Colonus comes to mind.
Unless Sophocles has gone Hollywood.
Though it would be awesome if Sophocles were attached to a Star Wars prequel remake.
February 4, 2010 at 11:27 am
Grant
Conversely, Macbeth would be much improved by replacing witchcraft The Force.
February 4, 2010 at 11:27 am
Grant
With, even.
February 4, 2010 at 11:28 am
Kathy
I doubt this will be a popular comment on this thread, but I like Douglas Kellner and Michael Ryan’s analysis of the original three movies as conservative screeds against socialism and in favor of patriarchy:
http://books.google.com/books?id=S9KZQ3iHeE0C&pg=PA317&dq=star+wars+intitle:camera+intitle:politica&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=0&ei=AhtrS8W7LKHGMt7F4esK&cd=1#v=onepage&q=star%20wars%20intitle%3Acamera%20intitle%3Apolitica&f=false
They also do a nice job of examining the movies in terms of fear of female sexuality. Like Mel Brooks, only more scholarly.
February 4, 2010 at 11:50 am
Michael Holloway
Reconsidering Star Wars of late I find myself comparing it to the Omen films – a simplistic way of interpreting the bible: there good people and there are bad people – only Pope-ist Magic can save good people who have become infected – and bad people are un-savable. Stories that have the subtly of a WWE death match.
“Where’s the bar?”
I’m not religious but I believe the ‘bar’ is a bar ‘gold-pressed latinum’, and some hail Mary’s. (Lucian mixed metaphor)
I don’t like the tithe part, but the part about redemption is good.
Perhaps what makes the Star Wars machine immoral or perhaps amoral, is that Lucas hasn’t paid his dues.
I’ll choose ‘King Lear’ as my Shakespeare comparison. Shakespeare starts with the admission that evil exists (the witches), but goes on to show how Lear builds his own road to it (through his Will & Testament), by the choices he makes – which are products of his failings (fear and faithlessness in his daughters).
I’ve seen only one of the prequels.
Perhaps Lucas is trying to tell the story of Darth’s fall into hell, a story intended to reveal the character’s path to redemption. But he’s doing it badly as Lucas hasn’t confronted many forks in his life (having worked on his initial triumph all his life) and thus his epic – isn’t. Yet anyways – and I’m bored waiting for him to redeem himself. :)
Michael Holloway
February 4, 2010 at 11:51 am
kid bitzer
“the green ham he bears is (in the frame of that story) revealed as something plainly good.”
false. the green ham that he has refused to eat is revealed as something such that, once you have eaten it, you enjoy eating it.
that is consistent with its being a very, very bad thing.
February 4, 2010 at 11:52 am
henry
I think if you’re going to argue that Vader is redeemed in the end, you need to show your work a little more.
Return of the Jedi does play up his last minute side-switching, but I don’t see where it “lets him off the hook.” I’m not sure what the deal with ghost-vader was, but I don’t think it’s a given that he’s in “jedi heaven.”
And even though the prequels were irritating and boring, I support the decision to make them about Vader, one of the most interesting characters. There’s just something more interesting about villains.
February 4, 2010 at 11:57 am
Vance
Quite right, kb, I fumbled that. I do think art that’s dangerous in the sense we’re talking about is unlike the green eggs and ham, either on the naive interpretation I offered or your sounder one.
February 4, 2010 at 12:01 pm
dave
He sure as hell ain’t in hell, is he now?
The original trilogy was a fairy-story with spaceships, the prequels were just expensive crap, is there really much more to say, when there are actual good films out there to advocate?
February 4, 2010 at 12:04 pm
ari
I think if you’re going to argue that Vader is redeemed in the end, you need to show your work a little more.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t he appear in Jedi heaven (as Eric notes), alongside Obi Wan and Yoda at the end of RotJ. I’m pretty sure my older boy has action figures of the translucent trio.
February 4, 2010 at 12:07 pm
Ralph Hitchens
As another Master Jedi might say about Lucas’s saga, “Off the rails, went it.”
February 4, 2010 at 12:10 pm
booferama
Hitler wasn’t only adorable, he was an adorable kitten:
http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/cgi-bin/seigmiaow.pl
February 4, 2010 at 12:21 pm
kid bitzer
green eggs & ham creeps me out. no offense intended to sam-i-am, but the book is clearly a post-kinseyan beat-era manifesto in favor of free love, inter-species canoodling, and doing what feels good. so i’m against it.
“could you would you in a box? could you would you with a fox?”
is that what you want your children to read? next thing you know, we’ll have dick and jane covered in santorum.
February 4, 2010 at 12:32 pm
Vance
I tried convincing my daughter that the proper analogy was vegetables — really, they’re just as good as that eggs and ham you love! though green! — but it didn’t take. Perhaps it’s the pushiness, all too similar to my own.
February 4, 2010 at 12:34 pm
andrew
I thought redemption through some act too small to make up for the earlier actions of the character to be redeemed was an old Hollywood tradition.
Also, the remarkable thing about the prequels is that they had me thinking that the first movies were actually good (by my current taste and judgment), but a re-watching of those movies soon cleared that up. I did like them when I was 14.
February 4, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Walt
I have a theory on why that guy with the 70-minute review adopts that creepy persona. If you watch a bunch of his reviews, especially his Star Trek reviews, he has very unmasculine (in the stereotypical sense) taste in movies. He doesn’t like action movies, and he likes stories that center around relationships. He likes TNG because they sit around and talk and try to avoid conflict (and he hates the TNG movies because they up the conflict). I think he adopts the persona to cover the fact that he’s a big girl’s blouse.
February 4, 2010 at 12:52 pm
kid bitzer
one of the weird things about revisiting the early star wars movies is trying to reintegrate them into the rest of the cultural time-line.
i heard the star wars theme, disco version the other day. and thought, that’s right: they were happening at the same time. when the actors were shooting the first star wars, they were probably off dancing to the beegees after work each night.
i’d say that they are otherwise relatively unmarked by disco influence.
February 4, 2010 at 12:58 pm
silbey
I don’t understand this discussion. Surely, it is one of the great tragedies of movie history that Lucas regained his sight in the late 1980s, lost his mojo, and was thus never able to return to the Star Wars project. The kind of sequels he would have made will never be known, but they can hardly have been anything but excellent. As it is, the three original movies will have to stand alone, monuments to a directorial career cut short.
(h/t to Joan Osborne)
February 4, 2010 at 1:22 pm
scott
The interesting thing about the Star Wars prequels is everyone agrees there is something wrong with them but no two people can agree on what it is.
February 4, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Walt
I agree.
February 4, 2010 at 1:46 pm
kevin
As it is, the three original movies will have to stand alone, monuments to a directorial career cut short.
Of the three original movies, Lucas only directed the first.
That’s one of the reasons why Empire Strikes Back is so good. The other is that Lucas didn’t have much of a hand in the screenplay for that one either.
February 4, 2010 at 1:47 pm
kevin
But as long as we’re talking about changing the timeline and stopping Lucas from destroying the franchise, I have to recommend this Patton Oswalt routine.
February 4, 2010 at 1:51 pm
AaLD
I always thought the redemption of Darth Vader was derived from Christianity, at least the American Protestant version. In Evangelical belief, redemption isn’t gained by atoning for past sins, it is gained by conversion and accepting redemption, which is freely offered. I suppose one could make an argument that Obi Wan’s death was an atoning sacrifice for Vader, but I don’t know if I would go that far. Christians are generally taught to live good lives (however that “good” is defined), but it’s your state of mind/belief at the end your life that counts, not how you live your life. I suppose one could argue that this doesn’t make Vader’s redemption any less evil, but it isn’t really that original. The concept has been around at least since St. Paul.
February 4, 2010 at 1:53 pm
Dan
In the post, Eric says: “Things started to go wrong with Return of the Jedi, in which Vader goes to Jedi heaven. Why? Because he balked at participating in his son’s murder. Wait, what? That’s enough to redeem an adult lifetime of complete evil?”
It looks like you’re assuming that redemption operates on a quid pro quo basis, in a theological system where you as a limited human being get to determine which good actions cancel out which bad actions. To a theology geek like me, such an attitude comes across as (forgive me for saying this) naive at best. Gustavo Gutierrez’s On Job is useful in this context. In an exegesis of Job 38.4-11, Gutierrez writes:
“At the very beginning of the speech, Yahweh expresses willingness to reveal the plan or intention, the ‘esah, of God. This revelation requires binah on Job’s part — that is, understanding, discernment, knowledge of the truth of things. The revelation of God’s plan, when received with good judgment, will show Job that the doctrine of retribution is not the key to understanding the universe; this doctrine can give rise only to a commonplace relationship of self-interest with God and others….” (trans. Matthew J. O’Connel, Orbis Books, 1985/1987, p. 70; and I apologize that the limitations of HTML character sets don’t allow adequate transliteration of the Hebrew terms).
I’m not asking you to agree with Gutierrez, of course — but when Gutierrez and many other theologians of equal stature and wisdom offer this kind of more nuanced view of redemption and retribution, it seems to me that it would be wise to provide a more robust argument in favor of your quid pro quo stance, before turning around and dismissing the movie as “evil.” You would call me out if I made a naive and unsubstantiated historical claim; so now I’m calling you out on your naive and unsubstantiated theological claim.
Isn’t it fun to have an advanced degree in an obscure subject?
February 4, 2010 at 2:09 pm
silbey
Of the three original movies, Lucas only directed the first.
Of all the things I wrote, *that’s* what you’re picking out?
February 4, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Russell60
“American Graffiti” was the last George Lucas movie that was any fun.
February 4, 2010 at 2:40 pm
politicalfootball
Every time I read a post on the deeper meaning of Star Wars, I link this 10-year-old Salon article from David Brin. I bet I’ve linked it here before. Brin captures the dark side (if you’ll pardon the expression) of Campbell-ian mythmaking as practiced by Lucas, and compares that with Star Trek’s more egalitarian myth-making.
February 4, 2010 at 3:11 pm
henry
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t he appear in Jedi heaven (as Eric notes), alongside Obi Wan and Yoda at the end of RotJ.
I only ever saw the movies, so maybe the extended universe explains the “Jedi heaven” more. But it doesn’t seem clear to me that getting to appear as a ghost is the same thing as redemption.
The movie does play it as a happy ending, but it still seems like a stretch to interpret “Anakin switched back to the good side” as “Anakin is forgiven for everything.”
February 4, 2010 at 3:26 pm
politicalfootball
But it doesn’t seem clear to me that getting to appear as a ghost is the same thing as redemption.
Gosh, I think you’re the only one who missed it then.
I’m not sure what the deal with ghost-vader was
Can you speculate a little? What do you make of the fact that he’s palling around – very happily – with Obi-Wan and Yoda? You figure that the trio was condemned to some kind of sad, twilight existence as ghosts out of atonement for their crimes, and that the movie ended on a somber note for them? Or what?
February 4, 2010 at 3:50 pm
bitchphd
I think you’re being uncharitable here. Vader as Bad Guy may be morally clear, but it’s kinda . . . simple. PK has seen all the movies, and he doesn’t take away that DV is forgiven or forgiveable; he takes away that kids, as they are growing up to be adults, have Moral Choices to Make, and that sometimes choices that are very sympathetic are nonetheless wrong, that sometimes you have to do the right thing even if it’s hard.
God knows I hate the new movies, and think that supposed cute kid is annoying as hell (to say nothing of adolescent Anakin). But I think you’re wrong about the impact of that narrative line on kids.
February 4, 2010 at 4:08 pm
henry
@politicalfootball
I don’t think I’m being unreasonable here – the sarcasm isn’t really necessary. In the films, we see Vader destroy a planet and its inhabitants. I saw this final shot of Vader, Obi, and Yoda as a device used to say “everything is OK now – even the villain has been converted.”
In fact, you could argue that Vader’s one good act in the original films – killing the emperor instead of Luke – wasn’t particularly good. He was already dying, due to a wound from Luke. He had nothing left to lose. He didn’t make any kind of sacrifice.
It’s ambiguous if Vader is redeemed at all – I certainly think it’s up for debate.
February 4, 2010 at 5:03 pm
human
Well, thanks for leaving out the rape jokes.
February 4, 2010 at 5:45 pm
Tom Elrod
It’s ambiguous if Vader is redeemed at all – I certainly think it’s up for debate.
Look, if Lucas was a better storyteller, then yes, the question of whether Vader’s final sacrifice was “enough” to redeem him would certainly remain ambiguous and up for debate. It would be part of a larger, complex moral fabric about war, death, family, destiny, doing the right thing, etc.
But Lucas isn’t a very good storyteller, in the end. He’s okay at plugging into pop sensibilities, but that’s about all. Star Wars does not have a complex moral fabric and all of the themes of war, death, family, etc. aren’t really themes at all, just Cambell-ian window dressing for the special effects. Lucas has nothing to say about these issues. He has nothing to say at all, really, except a desire to tell a fun story (which, especially in the prequels, he often fails to do).
Thus, in the Star Wars universe, it’s not really up for debate whether Vader is redeemed or not. He is. The ending of RotJ is pretty clear about this. It’s not ambiguous or complex or unresolved. Such things are not a part of George Lucas’s artistic toolbox. He may believe himself to be a modern-day Homer or whatever, but he’s just a fairly decent pop mythologist who loves CGI a whole, whole lot.
February 4, 2010 at 5:53 pm
andrew
Actually, I’m clear on how the prequels change the arc of Darth Vader’s life story, but I’m not clear on how they change anything about the nature of his redemption at the end of Return of the Jedi. It was always inadequate to the things he’d done in the first few movies.
Also, American Graffiti isn’t particularly good either (but has nice music), neither are the Indiana Jones movies (but they have their entertaining moments) and I’m sure there’s more curmudgeonly things for me to say, but I’ll stop there. I have not seen THX-whatever.
February 4, 2010 at 7:10 pm
ME
It never occurred to me that the Star Wars universe even has a heaven or hell. My interpretation of the final scene was that Darth, Obi-Wan, and Yoda were joining the rest of the rebels in their celebration of good over evil. And we don’t even necessarily need to assume that the ghosts are real — maybe it’s all in Luke’s head.
It was like henry says, a way to say, all is right now. Alternatively, if Lucas had wanted to say that all is not all right, he would have shown Darth’s ghost lurking creepily in the background.
I am basically extending Tom Elrod’s argument to say that Lucas didn’t even think whether Vader was redeemed or not. He simply inserted this feel-good scene with no thought as to what it means. But it does feel good, so mission accomplished.
February 4, 2010 at 8:45 pm
erubin
Off-topic:
Look, maybe little Hitler was completely adorable, but you’re not going to make an Indiana Jones prequel about cute lil Hitler.
Back in the midst of the Elian Gonzales debacle, Late Night with Conan O’Brien facetiously took the stance that Elian should stay in America. They ran a fake documentary on the underrated importance of having a great-uncle in your life, as opposed to a father. In it, they showed a black and white photograph of an elderly man sporting a push broom mustache and fishing gear and attire. Next to him was Adolf Hitler’s adult head poorly photoshopped onto a six year-old’s body. The accompanying narrative said, “We can only speculate how history might have been different if young Adolf spent more time with his great-uncle.” Classic Conan, and I wish I could find the clip or at least a screenshot.
On-topic:
Although it’s far from the only problem, I felt that the main thing missing from the Star Wars prequels was a Han Solo figure. Everybody loves a good anti-hero (by the way, Han shoots first). Take Han out of the original films and they lose a lot of their punch.
When can we expect a too-close reading or review of Avatar? When I read the title of your post, I thought for sure that’s what it would be about.
February 4, 2010 at 9:01 pm
politicalfootball
Obi, and Yoda as a device used to say “everything is OK now – even the villain has been converted.”
How do you see the celebration of his conversion as being different from “redemption” in this context? I don’t get it.
To be clear, the only reason I object to what I call DV’s “redemption” is that it implies that “everything is OK now.” Everything is not okay at the end of the movie.
Had DV been “redeemed” but tormented by his past deeds – had everyone understood at the end of the movie that everything was not OK – I wouldn’t mind the redemption so much. (Mind you, I’m kind of an outlier on this. I’m more sympathetic to the aging Robert McNamara, for example, than a lot of people were. As far as I know, McNamara never had the gall to suggest that “everything is OK now.”)
Anyway, the former residents of the former planet Alderaan would beg to differ with you on everything being OK. I’m with them.
February 4, 2010 at 11:36 pm
serofriend
That’s enough to redeem an adult lifetime of complete evil?
I had the same thought at the end of ROTJ and ROTS.
Hitler’s Early Days.
February 5, 2010 at 3:18 am
Tom Elrod
Everything is not okay at the end of the movie.
Yes, but once again, Lucas just isn’t thinking that much about the ramifications of his universe. In anything vaguely resembling reality, the sudden, violent collapse of a large totalitarian empire would have massive social and political consequences and the late-career regrets of a despot would be met with skepticism and probably disgust.* In Star Wars, there are just parties with Ewoks. Lucas doesn’t care about following through with any ethical repercussions of the story he is telling, and so, in the movie, everything really is sunshine and rainbows at the end. The Empire falls. Vader is redeemed. Leia loves Han. All good. Sure, a lot of people died, but the heroes are alive. And, in Lucas’s mind, that’s all it takes for a happy ending.
*A Fog of War-style mockumentary with Darth Vader would be totally worth watching, however. Get on it, YouTube parody artists!
February 5, 2010 at 4:49 am
politicalfootball
“Sure, a lot of people died, but the heroes are alive. And, in Lucas’s mind, that’s all it takes for a happy ending.”
I agree with you that this is how Lucas sees this, but you take a sunnier view than I do of Lucas’s culpability for the consequences of his tale. (Brin deals with this issue nicely in the article I link above.)
It may just be post-Bush cynicism on my part, but the human desire for an ubermensch to ride in, slay the villains and set everything right is chilling to me, and I see Lucas-style storytelling as a more-or-less conscious effort to promote that type of thinking.
Lucas is a careless storyteller in the same sense that Bush voters were careless citizens. I’m not inclined to let either off the hook that easily.
February 5, 2010 at 6:51 am
Anderson
Vader does not simply “balk” at killing Luke, but actually kills the Emperor to save Luke, sacrificing himself in the process.
Not that ROTJ is a good movie or anything, but keeping Vader alive to be sentenced to life imprisonment by the Rebel Alliance for his past crimes would not have improved the story.
February 5, 2010 at 6:55 am
Anderson
Anyway, the former residents of the former planet Alderaan would beg to differ with you on everything being OK.
The movie does not suggest that Vader participated or approved of that particular deed, though he certainly could’ve killed Tarkin to try to prevent it.
Again, the idea that the movie would’ve been improved by a Nuremberg Trial at the end (a bookend to the Nuremberg Rally at the end of Episode IV?) is as weird in its own way as Lucas’s actual story is.
February 5, 2010 at 7:01 am
silbey
Again, the idea that the movie would’ve been improved by a Nuremberg Trial at the end (a bookend to the Nuremberg Rally at the end of Episode IV?) is as weird in its own way as Lucas’s actual story is
If somebody suggested that, I didn’t see it.
February 5, 2010 at 7:26 am
politicalfootball
but keeping Vader alive to be sentenced
I’m just going to keep pointing people to the Brin essay, linked above. You (and Brin) are correct that moral seriousness creates some serious narrative problems.
February 5, 2010 at 7:30 am
politicalfootball
The movie does not suggest that Vader participated or approved of that particular deed, though he certainly could’ve killed Tarkin to try to prevent it.
An interesting reading of the movie, by the way. This is like henry:
It’s ambiguous if Vader is redeemed at all – I certainly think it’s up for debate.
These readings are simply unavailable to me. The intent (according to my understanding) was crystal clear in both cases. No ambiguity whatsoever.
February 5, 2010 at 8:19 am
dana
Yeah. I have to say it’s pretty clear that while perhaps Vader *shouldn’t* have been able to be redeemed (at least not politically — it’s not like Lucas invented the deathbed conversion or the heroic sacrifice) by throwing the Emperor down a shaft, and that the collapse of a Galactic Empire wouldn’t be smooth or universally welcomed, Lucas’ story really doesn’t seem to have that kind of complexity. Not that it should stop fans from speculating. But. It’s probably not there. Yubnub.
February 5, 2010 at 8:50 am
politicalfootball
I sure did like those first three movies – all three !
February 5, 2010 at 9:39 am
Ahistoricality
Am I the only one who thinks that the animated Clone War series is a cruel trick on children, who will think of Anakin as a mildly annoying but basically heroic figure, only to discover that he’s really a mind-shatteringly evil person outside of that very limited storyline? Also, all the characters they are getting attached to get wiped out in a vast slaughter, except for the ones who eventually get killed one by one…..
February 5, 2010 at 10:50 am
henry
I guess I’m not convincing anyone, so I’ll stop arguing after this last point. At a gut level, when I hear “Darth Vader,” I don’t think “complicated character who made some poor decisions but turned out all right in the end.” I think “the embodiment of evil” and “classic villain.” And that’s taking the prequels into account.
On a sort of related note, has everyone seen this argument, arguing that the events of Return of the Jedi would result in an ewok apocalypse?.
February 5, 2010 at 1:10 pm
chingona
Am I the only one who thinks that the animated Clone War series is a cruel trick on children, who will think of Anakin as a mildly annoying but basically heroic figure, only to discover that he’s really a mind-shatteringly evil person outside of that very limited storyline?
No.
February 5, 2010 at 4:40 pm
politicalfootball
“Sure, a lot of people died, but the heroes are alive. And, in Lucas’s mind, that’s all it takes for a happy ending.”
I agree with you that this is how Lucas sees this, but you take a sunnier view than I do of Lucas’s culpability for the consequences of his tale. (Brin deals with this issue nicely in the article I link above.)
It may just be post-Bush cynicism on my part, but the human desire for an ubermensch to ride in, slay the villains and set everything right is chilling to me, and I see Lucas-style storytelling as a more-or-less conscious effort to promote that type of thinking.
Lucas is a carelesszc. storyteller in the same sense that Bush voters were careless citizens. I’m not inclined to let either off the hook that easily.
February 5, 2010 at 4:43 pm
politicalfootball
Ack – sorry for weird malfunction leading to double post.
February 5, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Michael Holloway
Eric said near the top,
I think there’s a danger in this kind of amoral play.
I watched a few episodes of the Sopranos but soon I realized I was waiting for the fall – all the arcs were already apparent. I stopped watching because doing so felt like voyeurism at a car wreak. I watched my family continue to consume the spectacle for countless more episodes. As the series end became gossip news, I tuned in long enough to hear there was no fall, but just a fade to black. And so it goes.
I think my family watched the horror because they were afraid – they needed to ingest all the inside dope of mafia-land to steel themselves in a time when the leaders of society seemed little better than Darth Vaders or Tony Sopranoes (wall street ‘gun slingers’ and spun wars of ‘preemption’). A cautionary tale one needs to understand for your future safety.
The danger is that an evil meme begets itself.
By framing the character as the ‘low’ the writer provides himself with no path to redemption. The story starts as a rage. The guy is a sub-human scum and that’s that – we don’t understand him and we don’t want to – collectively we covet a “kill’em good” conclusion. Then everyone feels that lynch-mod paradox adrenaline that comes when bad is done – and a group is in denial.
Fearfulness breads fear in the group. If you have a dark view, then the world is a dark place.
But it sure sells stuff.
I like ‘JarJar’, great word.
mh
February 8, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Seth
A friend of mine suggested that the prequels could have been more satisfying if they focused more on Anakin’s tragic flaw — his upbringing as a slave. The idea is that he could never forgive the Republic for turning a blind eye to his servitude. And although he was excited by his own freedom, he surely must have come to resent Qui-Gon and Obi Wan who, for all their powers, left Anakin’s mother behind as a slave on Tattooine.
All of this would have made Anakin susceptible to the Emperor’s argument that the Republic was corrupt and the Jedi useless, and that what was really needed was strength and order. Anakin’s tremendous skills could have been used to bring what he saw as justice to the galaxy, even though he was serving the cause of evil.
Instead, we got Anakin going to the Dark Side to protect his wife, who dies almost immediately anyway. So it really wasn’t clear what motivated him for the two decades between Padme’s death and his own “conversion” in RotJ, other than a sense of “you can’t go back.”
February 10, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Lemmy Caution
Am I the only one who thinks that the animated Clone War series is a cruel trick on children, who will think of Anakin as a mildly annoying but basically heroic figure, only to discover that he’s really a mind-shatteringly evil person outside of that very limited storyline? Also, all the characters they are getting attached to get wiped out in a vast slaughter, except for the ones who eventually get killed one by one…..
The clone wars is a pretty good show, but it is a cruel trick like you say. Everything the jedi do on the show is futile. Who cares if the separatists win, it is all a scam anyway. To the show’s credit it does have characters like Duchess Satine Kryze and the deserting clone who understand the futility of the war ( but are pretty much ignored).
February 16, 2010 at 10:39 am
June
This article is a piece of shit, written by a right-wing reactionary.
February 16, 2010 at 10:43 am
silbey
This article is a piece of shit, written by a right-wing reactionary
Aha! Eric, I _knew_ you were suspicious.
February 16, 2010 at 3:34 pm
serofriend
If this article is a piece of shit, then I’m in deep trouble.
March 2, 2010 at 11:06 pm
THE CON
I wouldn’t say this article is a piece of shit, but someone who is so tied to a film series that any negative commentary about it is equated to a right wing conspiracy is probably a piece of shit……..or just really lonely.
March 3, 2010 at 8:29 am
Vance
We should leave comments open indefinitely on this post, to see how many such selflessly constructive critics it can attract.