On this date in 1864 Union prisoners of war began arriving at Camp Sumter, a shadeless, sixteen-acre marsh stockade where, as one former inhabitant later described it, the “spewings of toads and reptiles and swamp ooze, decaying wood, weeds and rank grass are distilled into poison.” Known more conventionally as Andersonville Prison, the site became an enduring symbol of Confederate perfidy, the subject of dozens of ghoulish memoirs that sustained Unionist indignation for decades.
In a sense, the prison was a material consequence of the very cause for which the South was fighting. When the Union armies began enlisting African Americans — including escaped slaves — in 1863, the Confederacy declared its intention not to return captive black soldiers, whom they insisted were still the rightful property of their masters. In the wake of the Confederacy’s refusal, the prisoner cartel program dissolved entirely, and massive, makeshift facilities were constructed on both sides to warehouse wartime prisoners. Over the next year, more than 45,000 Union soldiers would be received at Andersonville, which had initially been expected to maintain a mere quarter of that number. Even a ten-acre enlargement of the camp in August 1864 left a mere 34 square feet per soldier.
Due to unspeakably filthy conditions and inadequate supplies of food and clean water, more than 13,000 of those soldiers — as well as numerous Confederate guards — would perish from some combination of scurvy or dysentery before the camp was liberated at the end of the war. Most succumbed between August and December 1864, a period that saw an average of 100 deaths per day.
By any account, Andersonville offered a squalid glimpse into hell. Sgt. David Kennedy, 9th Ohio Cavalry, wrote in his journal on 9 July 1964′
Wuld that I was an artist & had the material to paint this camp & all its horors or the tounge of some eloquent Statesman and had the privleage of expresing my mind to our hon. rulers at Washington, I should gloery to describe this hell on earth where it takes 7 of its ocupiants to make a shadow.
Clara Barton, visiting the grounds of Andersonville a year later after the camp had closed, wrote with horror of what she had seen there:
Think of thirty thousand men penned by close stockade upon twenty-six acres of ground, from which every tree and shrub had been uprooted for fuel to cook their scanty food, huddled like cattle, without shelter or blanket, half-clad and hungry, with the dreary night setting in, after a day of autumn rain. The hill-tops would not hold them all, the valley was filled with the swollen brook; seventeen feet from the stockade ran the fatal dead-line, beyond which no man might step and live. What did they do? I need not ask where did they go, for on the face of the whole green earth there was no place but this for them; but where did they place themselves? How did they live? Ay! How did they die? But this is only one feature of their suffering ; and perhaps the lightest. Of the long dazzling months when gaunt famine stalked at noon-day, and pestilence walked by night; and upon the seamed and parching earth the cooling rains fell not, I will not trust me to speak. I scarce dare think. If my heart were strong enough to draw the picture, there are thousands upon thousands all through our land too crushed and sore to look upon it. But after this, whenever any man who has lain a prisoner within the stockade of Andersonville, would tell you of his sufferings, how he fainted, scorched, drenched, hungered, sickened, was scoffled, scorged, hunted and persecuted, though the tale be long and twice told, as you would have your own wrongs appreciated, your own woes pitied, your own cries for mercy heard, I charge you, listen and believe him. However definitely he may have spoken, know that he has not told you all.
Henry Wirz, a Swiss doctor from Louisiana, served as prison commandant during the last few months of the camp’s existence after its original commandant, Brigadier General John Winder, died in February 1865. For his efforts, such as they were, Wirtz was hanged in November 1865. His last fourteen minutes of life were spent at the end of a rope that was too short, listening to Union soldiers taunt him with cries of “Andersonville! Andersonville!” as he slowly choked to death. Remarkably, he was the only Confederate official to be executed for war crimes.
131 comments
February 27, 2009 at 3:55 pm
kid bitzer
typo?
“I will not rust me to speak”
trust?
February 27, 2009 at 8:18 pm
TF Smith
In Gadolinium we rust…
February 27, 2009 at 8:21 pm
JosephineSouthern
When I saw your title “know that he has not told you all”
I thought oh, this is going to tell the truth about the yankee prisons. Prisons that could have provided anything a prisoner needed, but deliberately chose not to so as to kill them off. More Confederates died in these terrorist prisons than any union prisoner did in the South.
Oh, I thought you were going to tell us about how yankee prisoners from Andersonville were allowed to go to Washington DC by themselves and plead their case for exchange of prisoners; to plead they case to at least let medicines through the yankee blockade.
But no, you didn’t tell the truth, you lied with your yankee spin.
February 28, 2009 at 4:49 am
Dia
Specifically, which bit is a lie?
February 28, 2009 at 8:50 am
rea
The Union refusal to exchange prisoners was more complicated than simply the southern refusal to exchange blacks. Grant and other Union leaders were accutely aware in 1864 that the war was becoming a matter of attrition, and that the south needed its prisoners back more than the Union did. It’s the same logic that made Grant’s Overland Campaign a success–even though Grant’s army suffered many more casualties than Lee’s Army, Grant had a lot more men to lose, and the result of the campaign left Lee’s army crippled.
See here for some quotations from Grant and other Union leaders supporting this view:
http://www.civilwarhome.com/prisonerexchange.htm
Also, it in no way excuses Andersonnville to point out that conditions in Union prisoner camps were often horrific. See, for example:
http://www.altonweb.com/history/civilwar/confed/index.html
The southen defense to claims about the Andersonville atrocity, of course, was that they could not even keep their own armies and civilian population properly supplied, much less prisoners. Supply prblems, though, don’t explain or excuse the overcrowding and lack of clean water that were instrumetnal in so many deaths.
February 28, 2009 at 10:05 am
grackle
But no, you didn’t tell the truth, you lied with your yankee spin.
This brings up a tacit problem – you know, there are just not enough wars to go around; we humans are being slip-shod and careless in the execution of our duties toward glory and posterity.
Otherwise, why would we have to look back to those days of yore, to find a war to hang our hats on? I look to the day when we can have wars enough for everyone, to leave behind this sad situation of nostalgia for the graveyards of yesteryear when wh could have so much enthusiasm for new deaths today.
February 28, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Stephen
grackle,
I really don’t think the problem is a lack of wars. There’s the bloodshed factor, for one. Glory requires not just a high body count, but a proportionately high body count, which is why the devastating losses of the 20th century’s wars just weren’t enough to switch people’s allegiance from the Civil War.
We also have to consider that it’s far easier to hold onto a war when it was fought on one’s home soil.
The real issue here, though, is that so much effort is expended hanging on to their revisionist history of the Civil War simply because it’s necessary. Most Americans are in agreement that WWI and WWII: Electric Boogaloo were justified, and the Korean War is usually lumped into the “good war” category as well. Vietnam is of course still argued, which is why it plays such a large part in our discourse even today. I suspect that Iraq has a long, happy future ahead of it now that everyone knows it was started on a pack of lies and has accomplished exactly the opposite of every goal Bush set out for it.
Civil War revisionists like JosephineSouthern must work at it, every day, constantly rewriting the facts of history in their heads and to everyone with whom they come into contact, else the fantasy of a justified response to Northern aggression simply fade away.
Let’s say the USA starts an unprovoked war with Canada, loses and gets annexed. Then the Canadian government spends trillions of dollars repairing all the damage done in the war and allows us full participation in the national government and for each American province a high level of self-government to pass whatever damn-fool law we want about how the metric system is of the devil and evolution is of the devil and that rock-n-roll music is of the devil. If we then manage to dominate Canadian politics for a century, reshaping the nation in our backward image, all the while being massively subsidized by the evil provinces, of course, and we raise our children on an obsessively steady diet of propaganda on how we’re the victims and that we fired first is just a technicality, then maybe we could replace the Civil War in our national consciousness.
But I doubt it.
February 28, 2009 at 4:07 pm
JosephineSouthern
Whose the Civil War revisionist? You are sir, look up some real sources of real truths and confront your American history mindset.
For TELL ALL read “Co. Aytch: A Side Show of the Big Show, p. 199.” Written by a mere Pvt. Samuel Rush Watkins (June 26, 1839 – July 20, 1901), Maury Grays, First Tennessee Regiment.
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/13202
THen Comes The Farce: Note the date 1864, your date described as:”enduring symbol of Confederate perfidy”. (insulting yankee demagoguery).
THEN COMES THE FARCE
From this time forward until the close of the war, everything was a farce as to generalship. The tragedy had been played, the glory of war had departed. We all loved Hood; he was such a clever fellow, and a good man.
Well, Yank, why don’t you come on and take us? We are ready to play quits now. We have not anything to let you have, you know; but you can parole us, you know; and we’ll go home and be good boys, you know;–good Union boys, you know; and we’ll be sorry for the war, you know; and we wouldn’t have the negroes in any way, shape, form, or fashion, you know; and the American continent has no north, no south, no east, no west–boohoo, boohoo, boohoo.
Tut, tut, Johnny; all that sounds tolerable nice, but then you might
want some favor from Uncle Sam, and the teat is too full of milk at the present time for us to turn loose. It’s a sugar teat, Johnny, and just begins to taste sweet; and, besides, Johnny, once or twice you have put us to a little trouble; we haven’t forgot that; and we’ve got you down now–our foot is on your neck, and you must feel our boot heel. We want to stamp you a little–“that’s what’s the matter with Hannah.” And, Johnny, you’ve fought us hard. You are a brave boy; you are proud and
aristocratic, Johnny, and we are going to crush your cursed pride and spirit. And now, Johnny, come here; I’ve something to whisper in your ear. Hold your ear close down here, so that no one can hear: “We want big fat offices when the war is over. Some of us want to be presidents, some governors, some go to congress, and be big ministers to ‘Urup,’ and all those kind of things, Johnny, you know. Just go back to your camp,
Johnny, chase round, put on a bold front, flourish your trumpets, blow your horns. And, Johnny, we don’t want to be hard on you, and we’ll tell you what we’ll do for you. Away back in your territory, between Columbia and Nashville, is the most beautiful country, and the most fertile, and we have lots of rations up there, too. Now, you just go up there, Johnny, and stay until we want you. We ain’t done with you yet, my boy–
O, no, Johnny. And, another thing, Johnny; you will find there between Mt. Pleasant and Columbia, the most beautiful country that the sun of heaven ever shone upon; and half way between the two places is St. John’s Church. Its tower is all covered over with a beautiful vine of ivy; and, Johnny, you know that in olden times it was the custom to entwine a wreath of ivy around the brows of victorious generals. We have no doubt that many of your brave generals will express a wish, when they pass by,
to be buried beneath the ivy vine that shades so gracefully and
beautifully the wall of this grand old church. And, Johnny, you will
find a land of beauty and plenty, and when you get there, just put on as much style as you like; just pretend, for our sake, you know, that you are a bully boy with a glass eye, and that you are the victorious army that has returned to free an oppressed people.
We will allow you this, Johnny, so that we will be the greater when we want you, Johnny. And now, Johnny, we did not want to tell you what we are going to say to you now, but will, so that you’ll feel bad. Sherman wants to ‘march to the sea, while the world looks on and wonders.’ He wants to desolate the land and burn up your towns, to show what a coward he is, and how dastardly,
and one of our boys wants to write a piece of poetry about it. But that ain’t all, Johnny. You know that you fellows have got a great deal of cotton at Augusta, Savannah, Charleston, Mobile, and other places, and cotton is worth two dollars a pound in gold, and as Christmas is coming, we want to go down there for some of that cotton to make a Christmas gift to old Abe and old Clo, don’t you see?
O, no, Johnny, we don’t want to end the war just yet awhile. The sugar is mighty sweet in the teat, and we want to suck a while longer. Why, sir, we want to rob and then burn every house in Georgia and South Carolina. We will get millions of dollars by robbery alone, don’t you see?”
February 28, 2009 at 4:42 pm
silbey
You voted for Ron Paul, didn’t you?
February 28, 2009 at 4:54 pm
JosephineSouthern
The website you put up on Alton Prison just began to tell the true story of that dreadful place. (a cleaned up version).
Try this one.
http://www.geocities.com/bourbonstreet/delta/3843/alton2.htm
Alton Military Prison
(POW Camp) Alton, Illinois
or this one: http://www.altonhauntings.com/prison.html
Dysentery (i.e. chronic diaherrea) was the biggest killer, followed by diphtheria, typhoid, measles, pneumonia and various infections. Smallpox was especially feared because it is a disease that is spread by direct contact
The prisoners, at the time of the outbreak, probably numbered almost 2,000 in quarters that were designed for many less. They slept three in a bed, ate standing up and used a common latrine. Nothing was clean in the prison and the men were often unshaved and filthy. As mentioned before, they could not bathe, their sleeping mattresses were never changed or washed and the prison yard was filled with pools of stagnant water and urine. (at laeast the yanks at andersonville had open sky above their heads).
Elmira (Hellmira) was even worse if that is possible and many more.
Eighty Acres of Hell DVD | $29.95
This is the long-overlooked story of the Union prison that was more than a match for the horrors of Andersonville. Experts explore possible connections between the brutal prison and the White House.One of the darkest chapters of the Civil War is finally illuminated.See how prominent Union citizens joined…
http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69494&SESSID=dc639a763afff918514222fcac1e6d2c&v=All
Books:
Portals To Hell – The Military Prisons of the Civil War
A well written and well organized study of Civil War prisons, North and South. The layman will enjoy the ease of prose and scholars will appreciate the authors meticulous documentation. A major strength of the book comes from the many firsthand accounts from prisoners and keepers. It is a good read from cover to cover plus the organization allows easy reference to specific prisons and time periods. It contains 32 pages of excellent pictures of the camps and men.
Elmira: Death Camp of the North by Michael Horigan
Andersonvilles Of The North: The Myths and Real… by James M. Gillispie
$16.47
To Die in Chicago: Confederate Prisoners at Cam… by George Levy
War of Vengeance: Acts of Retaliation Against C… by Lonnie R. Speer
Those well-versed in Civil War studies may find little new, but the novice reader will, perhaps, be taken aback at what Speer reveals.
I give Speer credit for “naming names” and showing the purposeful role Lincoln, Stanton and Grant played to further the plight of those held in their charge.
Civil War Prisons by William Best Hesseltine
THE ALTON PENITENTIARY
It would not be for these fleeting moments of glory that Alton would become known in the annals of Civil War history however. Alton’s reputation would be a much darker one and the events that would take place here during the war years would leave a horrible, lingering reputation behind. It would be at a site that is now close to the corner of Broadway and William Streets where tragedy, despair and disease became commonplace. It was at this place where death came calling for hundreds of men during the war – and it is a place where, even today, it is said that the dead do not rest in peace.
1863 – Officials in St. Louis sent off exasperated letters to Secretary of War Edwin Stanton. Colonel William Hoffman wrote: “I have urged for a more competent officer for the command than Colonel Hildebrand but have been told there is no one available… I therefore respectfully recommend that Captain H.W. Freedley, Third Infantry, be placed in command.”
Freedley arrived in Alton on November 27 and after only a cursory inspection of the prison, was shocked and disgusted by what he saw. “Inexcusable neglect,” he reported. “So incomplete and incorrect were the rolls that at this time, there are names found on the rolls that are not found in the prison, as well as three persons found in the prison whose names were not on the rolls… Many of the prisoners are sadly destitute of clothing… I have found the guard duties were performed in a loose and careless manner, arising from a relaxation of discipline…”
February 28, 2009 at 4:56 pm
ari
Wow, good neo-Confederate? Or best neo-Confederate ever? I’d say the latter. And I think we should start an award for this kind of thing. We can call it a Bobby. Or maybe a Forrest.
February 28, 2009 at 5:04 pm
kid bitzer
or maybe a ‘stonewall’, after the activity.
jo, dear, that’s a charming old document you’ve cut-and-pasted for us, but did you intend to use it to make a point or to prove anything?
if you did, could you tell us the point you’re trying to make, and why this supports it?
February 28, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Jason B.
The stupid–it burns.
February 28, 2009 at 5:16 pm
JosephineSouthern
Well sure, I thought you could put 2 and 2 together. ie 1864, the time period Andersonville went down. It didn’t start out that way you know. It was a clean piece of open ground. No concrete fortress as Alton, but fresh air and water a plenty.
Fact: The union powers that be didn’t give a d…..about these prisoners, they had gun fodder to burn. They knew without food, money, medicine the Confederates could not do much for these prisoners. So they put it in their war measure mix along with freeing the slaves.
February 28, 2009 at 5:35 pm
kid bitzer
are you trying to argue that the insurrectionists bore no responsibility for the treatment of the prisoners in andersonville, and that it was, in fact, the fault of the national govt? is that it?
how extraordinary.
i suppose you’re pretty sore over how badly churchill treated those prisoners in auschwitz, too, then? or perhaps you’re a holocaust denialist as well as a civil war denialist?
and what does that curious little music-hall dialogue have to do with all this?
and when are you going to get around to identifying the lies you claim to have discovered in the original post?
February 28, 2009 at 5:42 pm
JosephineSouthern
I proved the first lie of this piece.
“know that he has not told you all”
The rest of the article is hyprocritical yankee spin. I proved that too.
February 28, 2009 at 5:50 pm
silbey
You still haven’t answered the whole Ron Paul question, though.
February 28, 2009 at 6:13 pm
kid bitzer
could you explain how “know that he has not told you all” could even be a lie, much less how you have proven it so?
it’s a command, it orders you to do something (“know the following”). it’s not even the right sort of thing to be true or false.
or maybe you are referring to the statement that we were ordered to know: “that he has not told you all.”
at least that makes a statement, and so it could be false. it is false, if in fact he *has* told you all.
so is *that* what you proved: that contrary to what clara barton said, the imaginary character she is conjuring up has actually told you all? he has said everything there is to say, and he has no more to tell you. what a liar that clara barton was! and about her own imaginary characters, too!
is *that* what you have proved?
jo, hon, are you even *trying* to make sense here? could you try a little harder?
February 28, 2009 at 6:15 pm
JosephineSouthern
forget it kid – its over.
February 28, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Stephen
jo, hon, are you even *trying* to make sense here?
Yes.
could you try a little harder?
Oh man, we’re going to regret this request.
February 28, 2009 at 6:58 pm
xolotl
That Bitzer guy is a moron. Vitiates the entire blog. Cliopatria award or no, there’s not much cause to waste time here amongst the mean-spirited.
Best of luck, Dave Noon. I’ve enjoyed your little gems.
February 28, 2009 at 7:31 pm
kid bitzer
first you call me a moron, then you accuse other people of being mean-spirited?
if you want to disagree with some stuff i wrote, then disagree with it, and we’ll try to figure out who’s right. but what’s with calling me a moron? what kind of behavior is that?
and what’s this crap about me ruining the entire blog? what do i have to do with “the entire blog”? i’m not affiliated with any part of this blog, in any way. if you don’t want to read my comments, then don’t read my comments. the people who gave this blog an award didn’t base the award on my comments, that’s for damn sure.
if you don’t want to read the blog, then that’s your loss, but to blame your choice on some random commenter is just weird. you’re going to stop reading the new york times because of some letter to the editor they publish? that makes as much sense.
February 28, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Ahistoricality
A few pages after the oddly surreal passage quoted above, the author goes on (in the section titled “WHAT IS THIS REBEL DOING HERE?”) to describe how he shot a Union captain in charge of some Black soldiers — who had the presence of mind to recognize the author as a Confederate scout, thus the title of the chapter — in the presence of and with the consent of the Yankee cavalrymen with whom he’d become chummy. It’s a fascinating document….
But, aside from an eloquent expression of Lost Cause Rage, and a troubling depiction of the racism of Union troops who clearly didn’t have much hostility to Southern whites, I don’t see anything here to suggest an answer to the question of prisons.
Kid Bitzer is right — not that he needs my support on this — that JosephineSouthern hasn’t proven anything. It’s entirely possible, in fact, that J.S. has hurt the case, by showing a distinct lack of malice towards white Southerners by core Union forces.
February 28, 2009 at 8:54 pm
ari
For what it’s worth, I haven’t even noticed kb being mean here. He asked a series of fair, albeit pointed, question. J.S. didn’t answer them . And then xolotl decided that he/she/it doesn’t want to play our reindeer games any more. Alas, another subscription canceled. I’ll never be able to keep up my coke habit at this rate. More seriously, I’d love to know where J.S. learned this version of history.
February 28, 2009 at 8:57 pm
davenoon
You know, when I started writing here, few people believed me when I promised to bring the best trolls to EotAW.
“Better than Americaneocon?” they asked, incredulously. “As if!”
“You just fucking wait,” I said….
February 28, 2009 at 9:51 pm
dana
JoSouthern, you may have missed the “this day in history” bit, and it’s not called “this is the only bad thing that happened in the Civil War, ever..”
I am no longer certain that comments add value.
February 28, 2009 at 10:21 pm
kathy a.
wow. i miss a post one day, and miss all the excitement.
March 1, 2009 at 6:05 am
JosephineSouthern
I can’t figure out why this article was written in the first place. I picked it up from my Google ALERT message.
This article “know that he has not told you all” is one sided South Bashing, typical hyprocritcal yankee proproganda. That is what it is and that is why I posted to it, to try and add at least a teeny bit of balance.
My Yankee prison message which did show the northern prisons were more horrific, i sent that message twice never showed up.
The Alton Prison link given by one of the posters was milk toast.
Anyway, I see no point in continuing to attempt dialog with any of you, you have a mindset of systemic hatred of the South and it shows in this piece, the title was phony. I thought you really wanted to know. The yankee hate proproganda today has not changed since 1830-1861. It is just the same as it was before 1861 and lincoln’s 40% popular vote showed the division in the country at that time and was one of the many reasons we opted out of the union.
1864 is an important date, somebody said my post on Then Came the Farce has no point…..and the yanks were so nice, I feel for them, what a pitiful callous view.
Lincoln won his re-election with a lot of shenanigans, which we all are now accustom to in our government. So there was no doubt in anybody’s mind that he would continue the war. Lincoln’s total war on civilians was the first of its kind since Atilla the Hun and the Romans. Hitler came after that.
In my previous post that didn’t ever show up, among the references was this nuggett!
War of Vengeance: Acts of Retaliation Against C… by Lonnie R. Speer.
Those well-versed in Civil War studies may find little new, but the novice reader will, perhaps, be taken aback at what Speer reveals.
I give Speer credit for “naming names” and showing the purposeful role Lincoln, Stanton and Grant played to further the plight of those held in their charge.
Kid’s post to me was out of line, he was augmentative, baiting, condescending and immature, and didn’t deserve an answer. I suspect if I has not a female he would have hurled some expletives or at least been more straightforward instead of crouching his vermin in super politeness.
I suppose you all will not appreciate what I have said, if it gets posted, and Frankly My Dear I Don’t Give A Dam.
March 1, 2009 at 6:18 am
kid bitzer
argumentative, baiting, condescending–all true.
i’ll even toss in immature, too, if you like.
but that has nothing to do with whether the questions deserve an answer or not–that only describes the questioner.
sometimes argumentative, baiting, condescending questions really do deserve an answer. if the questions point up unclarities or vagueness in what you said, then the question deserves to be answered (even if the questioner does not).
sometimes you can even strengthen your own position by answering argumentative, baiting, condescending questions.
if you pass up the opportunity to clarify your own position in response to questions, it is only your own views that suffer.
but i suppose that’s your look-out.
what about ari’s question: in which state did you go to school? how recently? not meant as a belittling or hostile question, simply curious.
March 1, 2009 at 6:22 am
JosephineSouthern
Alton Military Prison
(POW Camp) Alton, Illinois
http://www.altonhauntings.com/prison.html
Dysentery (i.e. chronic diaherrea) was the biggest killer, followed by diphtheria, typhoid, measles, pneumonia and various infections. Smallpox was especially feared because it is a disease that is spread by direct contact
The prisoners, at the time of the outbreak, probably numbered almost 2,000 in quarters that were designed for many less. They slept three in a bed, ate standing up and used a common latrine. Nothing was clean in the prison and the men were often unshaved and filthy. As mentioned before, they could not bathe, their sleeping mattresses were never changed or washed and the prison yard was filled with pools of stagnant water and urine. (at laeast the yanks at andersonville had open sky above their heads).
Elmira (Hellmira) was even worse if that is possible and many more.
Eighty Acres of Hell DVD | $29.95
This is the long-overlooked story of the Union prison that was more than a match for the horrors of Andersonville. Experts explore possible connections between the brutal prison and the White House.One of the darkest chapters of the Civil War is finally illuminated.See how prominent Union citizens joined…
http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69494&SESSID=dc639a763afff918514222fcac1e6d2c&v=All
March 1, 2009 at 6:30 am
Ahistoricality
crouching his vermin
I have this wonderful image of “Kid Bitzer, Vermin Tamer” now.
J.S., nobody here knows for sure — the internet being anonymous unless you go out of your way to prove something — whether you’re female or not. Nobody here cares, actually. I couldn’t tell you — and I’ve been hanging out here for a few months now — whether k.b. is male or female, but I can say that I’ve never seen any expletives posted here from anyone in that time.
What we do here, mostly, is discuss history and politics. We do it with a fairly high expectation of evidence and reason, neither of which you’ve been giving us. Here’s the fundamental problem: you have assumed, as near as I can tell, that any mention of Andersonville without counterbalancing mention of Union atrocities is an unbalanced presentation, and that unbalanced presentations are entirely the result of outright hostility to the Confederacy or of succumbing to Yankee propaganda.
[Then I realize that I’m trying to talk sense into someone who created a google alert for the sole purpose of showing up in outrage and without a coherent plan for responding, who took offense at a very mild response and who has repeatedly said that we’re not worth responding to. Never mind!
If anyone else wants to take up the argument, showing J.S. where her {since she’s self-identified} assumptions are wrong, feel free. I’m done.]
March 1, 2009 at 7:06 am
JosephineSouthern
“Known more conventionally as Andersonville Prison, the site became an enduring symbol of Confederate perfidy, the subject of dozens of ghoulish memoirs that sustained Unionist indignation for decades.”
I have given you some very sustained Southern Indignation, but only recently known by the public at large if they care to educate themselves, and certainly not included in the subject in our government public schools.
Ahistoricality, I guess equal representation does not meet your agenda, and not your forte. I have supplied a lot more references that you did.
I do take offense to this last line as well. “Remarkably, he was the only Confederate official to be executed for war crimes.”
There is nothing remarkable about it. Major Wirtz was railroaded and persecuted by the powers that be in the union. You should read and learn about his phony trial. I have been in contact with one of his descendants from his home in Switzerland, who visited Vicksburg, MS and Washington, DC, and he has continued his ancestors 100 year old petitioning of our government to overturn this conviction.
Yes, Wirtz was the only one executed. Pres. Jefferson Davis wanted them to prosecute him while he was held in prison for two years under harsh conditions, however the Chief Justice Chase advised the union cabinet not to because Pres. Davis would win! Pres. Davis had been the Secretary of State for the Union, a Senator, and he was a formidable foe capable of defending his case. By this time The Websters dictionary had already been changed, the right of secession had been removed from Annapolis, and the constitution had been amended to outlaw secession. Capt. Wirtz was a mere Captain from a foreign country and he could be bullied.
March 1, 2009 at 7:07 am
Jason B.
Clearly, she’s suffering from Lincoln Derangement Syndrome.
March 1, 2009 at 7:24 am
silbey
guess equal representation does not meet your agenda,
The fairness doctrine was just outlawed by the Senate, and we try to adhere to the law at all times.
(In any case, if your point is that Union prison camps were awful too, then:sure.
Next?)
March 1, 2009 at 7:26 am
JosephineSouthern
“Then Came The Farce” shows clearly that there wouldn’t have been all those Yankee deaths at Anderson Prison if Lincoln had settled the war after Gettysburg. A meeting was held, but lincoln would make no concessions (some statesman?).
“Then Came the Farce”
O, no, Johnny, we don’t want to end the war just yet awhile. The sugar is mighty sweet in the teat, and we want to suck a while longer. Why, sir, we want to rob and then burn every house in Georgia and South Carolina. We will get millions of dollars by robbery alone, don’t you see?”
March 1, 2009 at 7:28 am
dana
“Agenda”? Honestly.
March 1, 2009 at 7:38 am
JosephineSouthern
Sibley, the point is that davenoon has written a purely South bashing piece of rhetoric. That is what it is.
March 1, 2009 at 7:40 am
JosephineSouthern
Jason, I have the documents and proof of what I said. Educate thyself.
March 1, 2009 at 7:56 am
JosephineSouthern
dana, yes, it is a slavery agenda. Called presentism.
Presentism is the empty, false assumption that all former people thought as some present people feel.
It’s fundamental to the worldview of Liberal Human Secularists who worship the trinity of race, class, and gender(s). It’s necessary for their hierarchy of evil that demonizes political and cultural enemies. It makes nothing Conservatives say count, because Conservative speech is permanently tainted by some hatred, intolerance, historical crime or politically incorrect no-no.
The presentism definition from Wikipedia lays out its flaws:
March 1, 2009 at 7:57 am
ari
J.S., where did you learn this version of Civil War history? Who taught you? Meaning, are you an autodidact? Or did you learn about the War, using these sources, in school? And where does your interest in the War come from? And finally, if you’ll allow one more question, do you consider yourself either a libertarian or a Libertarian? Do you believe that Ron Paul would make a good president of these (a gift for you, a token of my esteem) United States? I ask, if you care, because I’m increasingly fascinated by cases like yours: neo-Confederates who bother to come to a site like this, where they do missionary work among the benighted, South-hating scholars. It’s got to be lonely and tedious work. And yet you and others take the time to do it. Why? I really wonder.
March 1, 2009 at 8:18 am
JosephineSouthern
A letter appealing the death sentence of Confederate States of America officer Henry Wirz, who was hanged for his role in running the Andersonville Prisoner of War Camp.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wirz_Appeal_to_President_Johnson
There is or was a statue of Him in the town near Andersonville.
Attesting to sustained Southern Indignation.
March 1, 2009 at 8:23 am
ari
J.S. goes with “Him” rather than “him”. Now that’s a move that takes real guts: Henry Wirz as Jesus. Like I said above, best neo-Confederate troll ever.
March 1, 2009 at 8:30 am
Stephen
ari,
You nailed it by calling it “missionary work.” Neo-confederate revisionism is absolutely a belief system. There’s the dabblers, call them Cafeteria Confederates if you will, who believe the myth of the aggrieved, victimized south, but who don’t really let it affect their lives, all the way to the missionary zealots who are called to spread the Truth to the heathen.
As with many missionaries – and trust that I know this world intimately – opposition only strengthens their zeal. It proves to them that they are right.
So it’s not surprising that a minor functionary in the CSA would be accorded semi-divinity.
In Germany it’s illegal to display a swastika, while in the USA we have statues erected to the lasting memory and glory of traitors and war criminals. Amazing.
March 1, 2009 at 8:30 am
silbey
shows clearly that there wouldn’t have been all those Yankee deaths at Anderson Prison if Lincoln had settled the war after Gettysburg
And there wouldn’t have been any deaths at Andersonville if the South hadn’t seceded. This game can go on forever.
the point is that davenoon has written a purely South bashing piece of rhetoric. That is what it is.
He wrote a piece about Andersonville prison, all of it historically accurate. If it’s southern-bashing, then reality is southern-bashing. If he wrote an article about Elmira prison, would it be northern-bashing?
best neo-Confederate troll ever
I don’t know; Skydog was pretty good: all that plagiarized stuff.
By the way, self-taught, apparently.
March 1, 2009 at 8:49 am
JosephineSouthern
Ari, from GENEALOGY. I am a Confederate Southern American and I lost a ton of relatives in Lincoln’s War. They are my people. I wanted to know the why, what and wherefore of this War Between the States, This War of Invasion and takeover. This destruction of the original constitution my people wrote it, believed in it, and knew to keep it, we had to protect it.
I have been studying for many years. I have one ancestor of German descent from PA who is a descendant of George Soule of the Mayflower (he deserted the union side in North Alabama, left a wife and family in PA, we call those folks galvanized yankees.
I have ancestors from our First and Second War of Independence. I am kin to Obama through his Maryland DUVAL slave owning ancestor, I am kin to Sarah Palin from the George Soule Mayflower and many like them.
I am an independent, ex democrat, left them 15 years ago. Their part was taken over by the liberals. We don’t have a constitution anymore, it is just a piece of paper they change anyway they want.
I support Ron Paul and believe he has the right answers. McCain should have taken him by the hand and voted NO to the first bailout. I think many of us can still pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. Let the chips fall where they may, Shakeout the dustmop, roll up the sleeves and get to work.
All The Roads Lead Back to 1865 – when Hamilton and NOT Jefferson held sway.
It is a gut wrenching experience when you really dig up the dirt on the union. Take it in small doses, Your stomach will hurt.
I have two bookcases full – some of my favorites:
Red Republicans and Lincoln’s Marxists by Walter D. Kennedy and Al Benson, Jr. (I checked this out and it is true-Mark published over 500 articles in Horace Greely’s NYC Paper between 1850-1860, and Marx’s sidekick Dana was in Lincoln’s cabinet.
The South Under Siege 1830-2000 by Frank Conner. (make that 2009 and ongoing.)
Albion’s Seed (explanation of NE and South early population and differences).
Don’t Tread on Me – a 400 Year History of America at War by H. W. Crocker.
Cheers
March 1, 2009 at 8:49 am
dana
dana, yes, it is a slavery agenda. Called presentism.
No, it’s really not. This is a blog one of the features of which is called “this day in history”, wherein the historians pick something that happened on a day and write about it. This day’s topic was Andersonville. The title is from a quote. You seem to be thinking that the mission here is to write only things that make the South look bad, but you only have read to see that’s not true.
You guys get the best pearl-clutchers, though. No one gets this upset over whether I’m unfair to the PSR.
March 1, 2009 at 8:50 am
Jason B.
From one of the Amazon reviews:
My gut feeling was the powerful Roman English money cartel in 1861-1865 took back the Colony of America and reversed the Revolutionary War . . .
Ah. A Dubyaist scholar. And batshit crazy to boot. “Roman English money cartel?” Wow.
March 1, 2009 at 8:53 am
kid bitzer
part of what is interesting in this entire non-debate, this non-meeting of the minds, is the way that certain phrases sounded one way to their author and intended audience, and sounded very different to other readers.
e.g., when i read davenoon’s line
“the site became an enduring symbol of Confederate perfidy”
i took him to be making a comment on how later authors and politicians had used andersonville. i took him to be saying “after the war, people used a-ville to symbolize what they thought had been perfidious about the south.”
i did not take him to be making any claim, in that statement, about whether the confederacy was perfidious or not. maybe he believes that on other grounds anyhow, but that was not his point in making that statement.
(anymore than if i were to say “the nazis used hooked noses as a symbol of jewish subhumanity”. i’m not taking any stand on whether jews are or are not subhuman by making that statement–hey, some of my best friends are subhuman!–i’m just making an historical observation about how one group used a symbol to express its beliefs about a second group.)
but evidently some readers think that davenoon’s line means something like “boy, those confederates sure were perfidious! and andersonville just proves it!”
it’s a weird gestalt-shift between how you hear it. the one way hears it as point-scoring in an ongoing dispute. the other side hears it as a fairly neutral comment about long-dead historical actors.
March 1, 2009 at 8:56 am
kid bitzer
also, dana, i just want to say how *angry* it makes me when you are unfair to the psr!
and the worst part is–you do it for no reason at all! you’re such a brute!
March 1, 2009 at 8:57 am
JosephineSouthern
sib, I resented some of the words he used I feel they were abusive, and distort the truth. I pointed them out in a previous post so you should have know where I was coming from.
Will you explain what your interpretation of neo-confederate is?
Stephen, shut your mouth – making this statement: “while in the USA we have statues erected to the lasting memory and glory of traitors and war criminals. Amazing.”
You really should educate yourself, its clear you don’t know squat!
March 1, 2009 at 8:58 am
dana
I do it out of necessity, kid.
March 1, 2009 at 9:15 am
silbey
I support Ron Paul and believe he has the right answers
Yes! I win!
March 1, 2009 at 9:34 am
JosephineSouthern
Jason, while I was studying so much I got this gut feeling that England had backdoored us; my theory was developing that they wouldn’t let the colonies go easy, that they didn’t need to put up more fight, they just need’t to control the money. “Roman English money cartel?” right on. (when Rome left the British Isles, they left a lot of Roman descendants behind).
This theory was in the back of my mind and one day I ordered this little book by John Remington Graham, Blood Money – The Civil War and the Federal Reserve that answered a lot of my questions.
In this little book is mucho documentation. In 1913 Charles A. Lindberg a Minnesota Senator fought the Federal Reserve legislation tooth and toe nail, lost his job over it (his son was the aviator). Quote from Lindberg: “Rather than assume the care of the slaves, they would control labor with the use of capital” And if he got sick or died without the capitalists being obliged to provide or bury them… industrial slavery rather than chattel slavery.
And John Beauchamp Jones 1810-1866 of MD (clerk CSA, VA), Had been writing since 1840-1850s novels about American financial independence and solvency. in 1859 he pulled together various money pieces of the puzzle and sent to press a master work, Border Wars: The message J. B. Jones was sending was that the fatal wound that robbed the Republic of its life was neither slavery, nor tariffs, nor even secession, It was money, making money out of its demise.
We are talking East India Company – you know the ones the Boston Tea Party was about……they became The Bank of England.
Pope Pius XI wrote an encyclical pub in 1931 wherein he condemned the wealth accumulated, and the immense power and despotic domination concentrated in the hands of a few and those few frequently not the owners. – those who, because they hold and control money, are able to govern credit and determine its allotment, thereby supplying life-blood to the entire economic body and grasping in their hands the very soul of the economy so that nobody dare breathe against their will.”
After that I did more research and I wondered this Dred Scott case went on in the courts for years and years, yet the participants had no money to pay all these legal fees – who paid for this?
This book, Uncle Tom’s Cabin from an obscure unknown writer had mass circulation, and that takes money.
March 1, 2009 at 9:35 am
Stephen
I love it when neo-Confederates start playing up their genealogical bonafides, ’cause then I get to be all “St. Paul of the tribe of Benjamin.”
I’ve ancestors that were on the Mayflower and fought in Virginia’s militia against the English in the American Revolution. Their heirs owned a plantation in Tennessee that saw part of the battle of Shiloh fought on it. My great-great-etc.-grandmother was killed by Union soldiers in her own home, while her son was hidden in a cracker barrel by their slaves. No, I don’t eat at the restaurant.
My ancestors were among the first in the KKK, though I doubt they organized it, in Tennessee, then Missouri, then Oklahoma. If we were dealing with a troll who deplored the awful treatment given white settlers by Native Americans, I could mention that my ancestors were original Sooners – you’d better believe they went in and staked a claim before the official time. My cousins live on that land to this day.
My slave-owing forebear was married to one of Jefferson Davis’s nieces, and ol’ JD himself attended the wedding. I’m Confederate royalty, I am!
But like St. Paul, I’ve seen the light of truth, and I have no need of my pedigree. My ancestors were the mix of scoundrels and saints that everyone has, except that some of them committed treason and murder to defend their “right” to treat other human beings worse than cattle, worse than horses, worse than the family dogs. The only honorable reaction one could have to that is shame. And when I teach my children their family history, it will be not hagiography, but the truth of who we used to be, so we can celebrate who we have become and be challenged to continue our progress.
March 1, 2009 at 9:38 am
silbey
Although, now that I think about it, it’s only a partial win, as she didn’t refer to him as “Dr. Ron Paul.” Sigh.
one day I ordered this little book by John Remington Graham, Blood Money – The Civil War
Amazon has much for which to answer.
March 1, 2009 at 9:45 am
JosephineSouthern
Sorry, to get so off point and hope I haven’t bored you too much, I was trying to answer some questions. I like to use colloquialism in my post and I have a very Southern Accent. Nope I will not pc change it.
Now, can you please tell me why you call me a Neo-Confederate?. What does that mean?
March 1, 2009 at 9:59 am
Scott Madin
Ah ha, so Lincoln was the prototype of Hitler? Fascinating.
Wait, so now Lincoln was the prototype of Stalin instead? Make up your mind!
Actually, Marx also wrote Lincoln a letter congratulating him on freeing the slaves, and Lincoln once gave a speech in which he declared that labor was prior to, and superior to, capital. So I guess that settles it: Stalin it is!
March 1, 2009 at 10:02 am
silbey
Now, can you please tell me why you call me a Neo-Confederate
Uh, I didn’t, but wikipedia is your friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Confederate
March 1, 2009 at 10:03 am
JosephineSouthern
I apologize to davenoon if I misinterpreted his piece. For the last ten years I have seen every day some body writing something derogatory against the South and Southernors. Well, I am just fed up with it. Your piece, me being a nubby fit the mold in some respects. You are welcome to visit my website, we may be cousins.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mysouthernfamily/
Genealogy has nothing to do with uppity pedigree – it is the SOCIAL SCIENCE of this country.
I just read Stephens post and I was right I am in a nest of vipers here. Stephen may be lying, but whatever, he may be right about his family, but he is dead wrong about 95% of the Southern People – when he says
“except that some of them committed treason and murder to defend their “right” to treat other human beings worse than cattle, worse than horses, worse than the family dogs.”
Educate yourself, Stephen. I feel sorry for your poor children.
Read – check it out for yourself, don’t go around believe that tripe you are mouthing.
Myths of American Slavery by Walter D. Kennedy and foreword by Bob Harrison, a black historian with a strong wealth of knowledge about Confederates of Color.
He said: “I already knew that much of what is being taught as “gospel” regarding slavery is highly suspect at best. The information provided in this book fills in many of the gaps that the “official texts” leave empty.”
Check out H. K. Edgerton, google him. A true black patriot.
March 1, 2009 at 10:27 am
JosephineSouthern
Sorry Silbey, that was Stephen, ugh.
Scott, I like the way you put that together. Well, Hitler was an admirer of Lincoln. And the beat goes on
“Lincoln thought of himself as the heir to the Hamiltonian political tradition, which sought a much more centralized governmental system, one that would plan economic development with corporate subsidies and the printing of money by the central government,” DiLorenzo writes.
While waging the Civil War, Lincoln turned constitutional rights on their head, imprisoning thousands of Northern citizens without trial (including dozens of newspaper publishers and members of the Maryland legislature), confiscating citizens’ firearms and even deporting a member of Congress, Clement Vallandigham, for opposing Lincoln’s income tax proposal.
Obama and Lincoln certainly wouldn’t see eye to eye on race today, but they could yet become soul mates on wielding power for the “greater good.”
March 1, 2009 at 11:34 am
TF Smith
Wow, and I thought Kevin Levin had to deal with the bestest neo-confederates evah!
Many props to the proprietors…
March 1, 2009 at 11:47 am
Jonathan Dresner
Lincoln’s total war on civilians was the first of its kind since Atilla the Hun and the Romans.
Actually, there are plenty of cases in which civilian populations bear the brunt of military action in between: the Crusades (First, especially) and the Mongol campaigns come to mind.
March 1, 2009 at 1:35 pm
silbey
Well, Hitler was an admirer of Lincoln
Hitler liked dogs, too. I’ve been suspicious of canines ever since.
March 1, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Stephen
To be brutally frank, to me a neo-Confederate is someone alive today who believes that the cause of the Confederacy was just and good, that the war was in fact started by the Northern states – who fired first be damned – that Lincoln was a devious, even criminal despot. A neo-Confederate may or may not believe that slavery was ultimately good for the Africans who were brought here because their descendents have been able to enjoy the wonders of America, and he or she may even believe that slaves were happier as slaves than as free men and women.
Further, a neo-Confederate is a person who believes that the original sins of the North that caused the Civil War have been compounded by 140+ years of atrocities committed against the south in particular and whites in general. In fact, every Confederate fetishist I’ve ever met considers what the North has done since the Civil War to be actually worse than what it did prior.
And there lies the source of my contempt for the neo-Confederate, because they idolize – quite literally, it seems – the men who betrayed their fellow citizens and even members of their own families, in some cases, to defend the despicable practice of slavery without managing to scrounge up enough courage to actually follow in their footsteps.
March 1, 2009 at 5:31 pm
andrew
This seems like a good time to re-recommend this review essay (behind a paywall, unfortunately) on libertarianism and the Civil War.
March 1, 2009 at 5:33 pm
andrew
I think I just got spam filtered for a Project Muse link.
March 1, 2009 at 6:43 pm
JosephineSouthern
Hi again, this post may not go through, two of them haven’t, one of which I gave a somewhat apology to davenoon for maybe misinterpreting his article.
My ID JosephineSouthern makes it clear where I come from. I did some research on the posters of this forum to determine the path they are on, and it appears that I stumbled into the liberal democrat revisionist Kevin Levin NE castle. I don’t have an army with me, but I have been doing a pretty good job of defending my point of view. It really is a crying Shame that our children have to be taught by a distorted one sided point of view mindset. Derogatory Words do make a difference and they slip them into all their teachings and writings as though they are the gospel truth.
Well, now you know we do take offense of it and do make note of it. Interesting backgrounds you all have, and most of you are transplants to the South and engage in reconstruction and the cleansing of our culture. It is plain you have no real understanding of it, and your focus is NE stempic hatred of the South, with your slavery music always playing in the background; beating that drum, that pc stance pays good money these days and very likely ensures your future.
Ahistoricality gives no background on himself at all. Jason B. is a transplant to Oklahoma from Minnesota; wonder what he thinks of the new Oklahoma Soverign State issue. And then there is Stephen, an abortion supporter, he claimed to have this Southern Ancestry he loves to despise, knowing his bio his remarks can be put in context.
per http://www.cogitamusblog.com/about-the-authors.html
“Stephen comes from five generations of members of the Church of the Nazarene and the Salvation Army. He graduated from the same college as James Dobson and H.B. London, Jr., with a major in Biblical Languages. He went on to graduate from seminary, serving as a youth pastor, spiritual formation director, quasi-missionary/pastor (it’s complicated) and various volunteer church positions. And he’s the Cog Crew’s most rabid Democratic partisan, is fully committed to women’s unfettered right to choose and believes that ministers have no place bestowing tax breaks on heterosexual couples unless all other types of relationships get the same treatment. Run that past your filters, why don’t you.”
I bid you adieu
DEO VINDICI
From a Confederate Southern American
March 1, 2009 at 7:16 pm
andrew
Ok, I’ll try again with the link, in non-link form:
muse.jhu.edu/journals/reviews_in_american_history/v032/32.2feller.html
It’s a review essay on libertarians and the Civil War (which I may have recommended once before).
March 1, 2009 at 7:52 pm
JosephineSouthern
Charles Adams “In the Course of Human Events” was one of the first books I read on the subject and holds a prominent place in my library and in my heart. I also have his book “Those Dirty Rotten Taxes, the impact of taxes on the course of civilization.
I am not a libertarian for various reasons. I am an Independant, Southern Confederate American. They do overlap in many respects.
March 1, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Ahistoricality
I thought you left. If I knew you were going to stick around, I’d have told you where to find out everything about me. Everything except my gender: that’s my business, and nobody else’s.
March 1, 2009 at 8:32 pm
JosephineSouthern
Charles Adams “In the Course of Human Events” was one of the first books I read on the subject and holds a prominent place in my library and in my heart. I also have his book “Those Dirty Rotten Taxes, the impact of taxes on the course of civilization.
I am not a libertarian for various reasons. I am an Independent, Southern Confederate American. They do overlap in many respects.
I can’t access the link to read Daniel Feller’s review.
I re-read Clara Barton’s stuff in this piece and I feel including just her opinion proves it was one-sided and South Bashing. Why didn’t she say the same thing about the union prisons. Very Biased.
March 1, 2009 at 8:39 pm
urbino
Hitler liked dogs, too.
And women.
March 1, 2009 at 8:46 pm
JosephineSouthern
I remember Daniel Feller, I googled my desktop and found this one I saved.
King Andrew and the Bank
Humanities, January/February 2008
Volume 29, Number 1
If you find a site where I can read his review essay on libertarians and the Civil War without paying for it, let me know.
josie
March 1, 2009 at 8:53 pm
andrew
That was the only link I could find (and I don’t have access either). It’s been a while since I read it, but I remember him being quite critical.
March 1, 2009 at 8:54 pm
JosephineSouthern
I am interesting in reading it, however, I question that The Johns Hopkins University Press printed it and it so I don’t expect much good about the South to be in it. I am not pleased with John Hopkins U of Baltimore at all. You may know why.
March 1, 2009 at 8:57 pm
urbino
crouching his vermin
I am so using this.
March 1, 2009 at 9:01 pm
JosephineSouthern
Thank you Andrew, I will keep it in mind and try to track it down. I am not much of a fan of Horowitz – he made his fame in the Civil Rights feeding frenzy, but since then he woke up a bit. Geraldo is another fame seeker and is still the same ole a….h…. I do support Horowitz in his liberal professor analysis and his attempts to speak at our universities and colleges.
March 1, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Compson
…since it was ’64 and ’65 and the starved and ragged remnant of an army having retreated across Alabama and Georgia and into Carolina, swept onward not by a victorious army behind it but rather by by a mounting tide of the names of lost battles from either side–Chickamauga and Franklin, Vicksburg and Corinth and Atlanta–battles lost not alone because of superior numbers and failing ammunition and stores, but because of generals who should not have been generals, who were generals not through training in contemporary methods or aptitude for learning them, but by the divine right right to say ‘Go there’ conferred upon them by an absolute caste system; or because the generals of it never lived long enough to learn how to fight massed cautious accretionary battles, since they were already as obselete as Richard or Roland or du Guesclin, who wore plumes and cloaks lined with scarlet at twenty-eight and thirty and thirty-two and captured warships with cavalry charges but no grain nor meat nor bullets, who would whip three separate armies in as many days and then tear down their own fences to cook meat robbed from their own smokehouses, who on one night and with a handful of men would gallantly set fire to and destroy a million dollar garrison of enemy supplies and on the next night be discovered by a neighbor in bed with his wife and be shot to death;…
March 2, 2009 at 6:03 am
kid bitzer
hands off my vermin, urbino, or i’ll get augmentative on you.
i reared those little guys myself, and i’m planning to feature them in my next martial arts/civil war flic, “crouching vermin/hidden attics,” starring j.e.t. lee.
March 2, 2009 at 7:18 am
rea
captured warships with cavalry charges
Has she confused the Civil War with the Wars of the French Revolution? Does she know the difference between Jeb Stuart and JeanCharles Pichegru? Oh, my.
March 2, 2009 at 8:02 am
kid bitzer
rea, i think that’s a quote from faulkner.
March 2, 2009 at 9:03 am
Urk
that (Compson) was me, and it is Faulkner. It’s a quote that always comes to mind when some idiot or misguided (fellow) southerner starts going on about the tyranny of the federal government, as if the Confederacy was some kind of meritocratic bastion of freedom. It’s ludicrous, when even Bill Faulkner, a man who knew well the pleasures of putting on a uniform and pretending to be an officer, has your number. Maybe if I’d stuck to just “…generals who should not have been generals, who were generals not through training in contemporary methods or aptitude for learning them, but by the divine right to say ‘Go there’ conferred upon them by an absolute caste system;” the point (to the extent that there was one) would have been clearer.
Josephine, the civil war was a war, and rarely are any fought justly on either side. Certainly there was perfidy to go around, but if you’re going to play the mug’s game of comparative injustice, there really isn’t anything that trumps chattel slavery. You seem like an intelligent person, and I admire your drive to educate yourself, but as long as you’re only open to books that have much good to say about the south you’re really not in danger of educating yourself at all. You dismiss rigorous scholarship as “beating the drum of slavery” but until you and people like you stop trying to re-fight the wrong side of a losing war, and stop trying to defend a system where my ancestors and likely yours too were serfs whose only real value was to keep slaves in line, then that drum needs to sound loud and clear.
You know, as a southerner I’d like to be able to sustain a little bit of regional pride. After all, I come from the place (broadly speaking) that invented BBQ, that gave the world Louis Armstrong, Dizzy Gillespie, Doc Watson, Furry Lewis and Elvis Presley, not to mention Martin Luther King Jr. and Ida B. Wells Barnett, and Ralph Ellison, Faulkner, O’Connor, etc. Thanks, Josephine, for making it that much harder. Thanks for nothing.
March 2, 2009 at 10:33 am
JosephineSouthern
Thank you for your Thank you. You inspire me to continue.
Most blacks are Southerners aren’t they? Our Southern Culture has produced the best of the best. Booker T. Washington, Oprah Winfrey………so why do you want to destroy it?
I am a fan of Larry Elder, “the Sage” (he coined the word VICTICRAT), Walter Williams, H. K. Edgerton (see 411 site), Rev. Petersen of LA, and others of their ilk.
No amount of learning about the South would be anywhere complete without the study of slavery. Afterall it occupied everybody, and affected everybody 24/7 for 400 years. It is so bad today hardly a smidgen of truth about it can get through without the pc version of slavery dominating. I appreciate those who try, and I follow them instead of the vitriol hatred of slave masters that your ilk follow “The sugar is mighty sweet in the teat, and we want to suck a while longer”.
H. K. Edgerton’s version In North Carolina, is that after 200 years in the country his black population in North Carolina had won respect by their deeds and actions and were an asset to the community in whatever capacity they found themselves. Then along came the union occupiers, who taught them that the Southern White man’s religion was no good, their work ethic was no good, everything about them was no good and destroyed their good names in the community.
The union by their actions taught the freed slaves it was ok to steal, burn, murder, loaf, and degraded them from the powerful people of pride they had been. Through jim crow laws they were confined to killing most of their own, which the recent USA stats show is still the case.
If you really read the US 1850-1860 census you will see the freed black men of the South recorded. They lost everything in the Lincoln’s war too.
There were Abolition society’s in the South before they were in the North. After John Brown’s failed attempt and some other uprising of murdering whites in their beds, Freeing the slaves was not a simple task. Owning slaves was not a simple task. I wouldn’t want the job. You woke up talking about it, you went to bed talking about it.
In Florida today we have the Seminoles Tribe that operates very much like a plantation, they grow and make just about everything they use, except the casinos. They do pay wages, as opposed to cradle to grave care.
At the time that union Gen. Butler took over New Orleans the free black community there had the highest known civilization that blacks had ever attained. They were shoe makers, clothes designers, and much more, artisans of every stripe and they had an Orchestra that played classical music. Goggle Sr. Dorothea McCants, she is my aunt, and translated the book from French describing this society of black people. They were destroyed by union occupation and the aftermath of the war due to lack of dollars in the devastated poor South.
The First Book I Read was: Slave Trade, 1440-1870 by Hugh Thomas. Then
Time On The Cross by Fogel – and all supplements.
Compilicity by Farrow, Lang, Frank of the Hartford Courant
Myths of American Slavery by Walter D. Kennedy, forward by black historian Bob Harrison.
Lincoln Takes Command by Tilley c1941, c 1991
The Tragic Era by Claude G. Bowers c 1929
I have many quotes from visitors to the South who attest to the care, attention, good treatment, and good attitude and lifestyle of the slaves. Lord Action, etc. etc, etc. etc.
IMO you take 5% or less of slaves who were mistreated and blow it up into a gigantic mis-treatment of all the slaves by everybody in the South. “The sugar is mighty sweet in the teat, and we want to suck a while longer”.
It was on Fire When I lay Down On It – by Robert Fulghum
Fact:
The South was an agrarian society.
The imported Africans by the North were especially suited for the type of work available in the South.
We wanted them, we needed them, the North and the new territories did not!
There were fewer immigrants into the South, thus the White pop. was lower than the North and job competition was low.
The Spanish and the French influcence held a prominent place in society as well as the English.
The South was a mixture of various cultures that lived side by side. In “Live and Let Live”. (their descendants made up the Confederate Army where all races and creeds came together to defend their land from invasion by the union.).
Was Slavery a good or bad thing for African Americans? Some of both. I would like to see a real historian make a list of pros and cons.
Fact: We all wanted to see Slavery disappear. The big question was how to do it for the benefit of all. Certainly it was not lincoln’s way…..turn em out to root hog or die, the proof is in the puddin.
IMO – the Southern Confederate States had every right to all of America their forefathers had won in the First War for Independence = the right to move there if they wished slaves and all. The slaves would have been better assimilated, and would have progressed faster if the new territories and other states outside the South had not bottled them up in the South. New experiences would have benefited them; Fewer of them would have been easier for all to deal with. The 1850 Compromise was the death knell of the Union.
March 2, 2009 at 10:36 am
rea
rea, i think that’s a quote from faulkner.
Oh, but whatever was Falkner talking about, then? I know of only one incident in history in which cavalry captured warships, and I doubt the ice was ever firm enough during our Civil War for anyone to try it.
March 2, 2009 at 10:37 am
rea
Was Slavery a good or bad thing for African Americans? Some of both. I would like to see a real historian make a list of pros and cons.
What an insane thing to say.
March 2, 2009 at 10:45 am
Vance
“I don’t hate it,” Quentin said, quickly, at once, immediately; “I don’t hate it,” he said. I don’t hate it, he thought, panting in the cold air, the iron New England dark: I don’t. I don’t! I don’t hate it! I don’t hate it!
March 2, 2009 at 11:16 am
Urk
rea, I don’t know what Faulkner was talking about there. A quick google search turns up this: “The Confederate troops crossed the Arkansas on May 17–18, then proceeded toward Batesville (Independence County). During the rest of the summer, Shelby continually raided and attacked Union troops and outposts, including sinking a Federal warship, while trying to rein in the lawless bands of bushwhackers who operated in northeast Arkansas. His operations ceased when his troops joined Confederate Major General Sterling Price in his raid into Missouri that fall.” from the Encyclopedia of Arkansas entry on the battle of Dardanelle.
Shelby was a cavalry commander, so maybe that’s it. He does say “captured” instead of “sunk” but who knows? That’s never been the part of that passage that I was struck by so I never pursued it.
Josephine, this is indeed insane:”Was Slavery a good or bad thing for African Americans? Some of both. I would like to see a real historian make a list of pros and cons.” Moreover, it’s both creepy and disingenious the way you say “We all wished for slavery to disappear.” Not only did a certain powerful section of the south’s economic elite not want slavery to disappear, I seriously doubt that you were around to be part of that “we” no matter how hard you try to embody the lost cause. Do you even understand that “the south” as you dream it is largely a 2oth century invention? Never mind, because if you really think that slavery was good for anyone then you’re an idiot and i’m through talking to you.
March 2, 2009 at 12:08 pm
ari
Josephine, my dear, you’ve gone from being the belle of the ball to the turd in the punchbowl. It’s just so sad when a new friend begins spewing the positive good argument. Really, even a mild dalliance with pro-slavery sentiments isn’t the kind of tryst one wants to discover while visiting the comments section of one’s blog.
March 2, 2009 at 12:24 pm
JosephineSouthern
Yes URK, you are right that some of the south’s economic elite (northern transplant plantation owners included) (BTW, many of the overseers were black) and the North East factories who supported it (Complicity-they name names of NE money elite that we know today) likely did not want slavery to end.
However, facts by economist show that this cradle to grave care was getting too expensive to maintain, thus slavery would have died a natural death as it did in other countries by 1880.
Try not to be so biased in your beliefs and studies; Force yourself to look at these issues without your feelings being the dominant force. I know it is painful and gut wrenching to evaluate and discern the truths, but you will come out at the end with a more balanced few and take pride in all the peoples of South origin.
or is “The sugar is mighty sweet in the teat, and we want to suck a while longer”. Time will tell.
March 2, 2009 at 12:24 pm
urbino
hands off my vermin, urbino, or i’ll get augmentative on you.
Far be it from me to handle another man’s vermin, kid. I’m just over here crouching my own vermin.
the lawless bands of bushwhackers who operated in northeast Arkansas
Them’s my peeps.
March 2, 2009 at 12:32 pm
JosephineSouthern
Ari, what would you have done with 660,000 blacks from Africa landed on your shores, who couldn’t speak your language, knew nothing about your civilization, who had been enslaved by their own people and sold off, forced to make a horrendous voyage across miles and miles of sea – forced on the Colonies by the King to provide more for his coffers in spite of their pleas to stop sending them. The queens recent trip to Virginia was a joke.
How would you have handled it? Do you think Lincoln was right in his plans to ship them out of the country?
All King’s were descendants of slaves of somebody at some time in their ancestral history.
March 2, 2009 at 12:36 pm
JosephineSouthern
For starters, compare the life of the slave in the South to those in the Caribbean and South America. Most them died by age 35 from overwork and mistreatment.
Are you not aware that slaves cost a lot of money – over $1000, that most people in the South didn’t have slaves, only about 5%-10%.
Are you not aware that slaves were a protected class in the South. They were never given jobs that would endanger their health or life. It was the whites who were sent into the swamps to die of malaria. It was the whites who toted the big items on the docks.
March 2, 2009 at 12:40 pm
urbino
Are you not also aware that every slave was given a pony?
March 2, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Scott Madin
Is that bingo yet?
March 2, 2009 at 12:45 pm
JosephineSouthern
The liberal professors who “The sugar is mighty sweet in the teat, and we want to suck a while longer” are the purveyors and boosters of the “Victicrat” mentality in the black community. Our great grandchildren will be paying for it.
March 2, 2009 at 12:46 pm
ari
Josephine, the slaves didn’t land on the shores of this nation, immigrants come seeking a better life. They were brought here in chains, by traders seeking to turn a profit. And no, I’d like to think that had I been alive at the time, I wouldn’t have supported colonization. I certainly don’t in retrospect. Speaking of which, neither did Lincoln by the end of his life.
And this
They were never given jobs that would endanger their health or life. It was the whites who were sent into the swamps to die of malaria. It was the whites who toted the big items on the docks.
is just wrong. In fact, it’s so wrong that I’d laugh if I didn’t suddenly feel queasy. Really, Josephine, you need to stop. You seem to have just enough facts at your disposal to create a narrative of self-delusion in which your forbears were an oppressed people, struggling against federal tyranny while still finding the time to uplift the dusky dregs of Africa.
March 2, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Erik Lund
A dinosaur pony.
Ms. Southern, many people are reading your posts. Non-Yankees, even. If they are not chiming in to agree, perhaps you should ask yourself “why?”
On an entirely separate subject, I see that you have many distinguished Southern ancestors. Is Richard Mentor Johnson among them?
March 2, 2009 at 12:49 pm
ari
Last chance, Josephine: I’m willing to tolerate pro-Confederate rants. But pro-slavery arguments will not stand here. So choose one of the following: stop with that crap, move on and don’t come back, or have your comments end up in the spam filter. I won’t have people defending slavery in the comments section of this blog. I mean it.
March 2, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Buster
@ ari.
Thank you.
March 2, 2009 at 1:06 pm
JosephineSouthern
Ari, this is why we can’t have any discourse on the subject anywhere in America. I thought I made it clear that their trip to America was horrendous, and in their wild state of mind after such a horrendous event in their lives I know many had to have suffered mistreatment.
You say” “is just wrong. In fact, it’s so wrong that I’d laugh if I didn’t suddenly feel queasy”. What references do you have that it is not true that it was whites who were sent to clear the swamps and not blacks, that is was whites that toted the heaviest loads on the docks. There were free white men who had to earn a living, while the slave cost $1000 and could not be sacrificed – it was a money thing. This is a reasonable fact.
I am not pro-slavery just because I present some facts that you don’t want to hear. Pro-slavery accusation is very derogatory and uncalled for.
Slavery was a labor system. If you have ever read the slave narratives by the WPA would you say they were defending slavery just because they narrated good things about their ex-slave masters.
March 2, 2009 at 1:11 pm
ari
It’s not a fact, Josephine, in that slaves in New Orleans were forced to build levees, forced to clear brush in the backswamp, and forced to dig graves for the dead during the height of major summertime epidemics. These jobs, particularly digging graves, were too taxing and dangerous for most white laborers — except perhaps the Irish, whose whiteness was no sure thing. If you want the citations, please feel free to buy a copy of my book. Buy several; they make great gifts. Or, if you’d prefer to read things that will appeal to your current prejudices, check out a few issues of DeBow’s Review. There were often articles contained therein on the ways in which heavy labor in the Deep South degraded the dignity of white workers. The same was true for the leading Southern medical journals, which typically used racial pseudoscience as a justification for having slaves do the South’s heavy lifting. These sources aren’t hard to find, their contents aren’t secret. That you don’t know or care about them suggests that they contain facts inconvenient to your worldview.
And then there’s this:
I am not pro-slavery just because I present some facts that you don’t want to hear. Pro-slavery accusation is very derogatory and uncalled for.
To which I’d say: no, you’re pro-slavery because you think that slavery had some upsides for the slaves. And then I’d conclude by noting that if you don’t want to be called pro-slavery, stop articulating elements of the positive good argument.
March 2, 2009 at 1:12 pm
JosephineSouthern
ubino you are ridiculous with your comment
Are you not also aware that every slave was given a pony?
Are you not aware that 99% of the white people in the south were not given a pony?
Are you not aware that it was 1940 before the South even started to recover, there were poor working white people in the South for decades after 1865.
March 2, 2009 at 1:14 pm
JosephineSouthern
Is Richard Mentor Johnson among them?
no but i will goolge him
March 2, 2009 at 1:21 pm
JosephineSouthern
Ari, I don’t have any problems reading anything and evaluating and determining for myself. I will look up what you suggested. I doubt you would do the same.
You call me prejudice, but you are also very prejudiced. And you didn’t answer any of my questions except a tad about Lincoln and his plan. What about the WPA narratives – do you call them pro-slavery?
March 2, 2009 at 1:24 pm
JosephineSouthern
I don’t know of anything that doesn’t have some upside – People used to make Lemonnade out of Lemons by hard work. Now they just bellyache and cry about it.
March 2, 2009 at 1:29 pm
JosephineSouthern
Ari labeling is a no no.
March 2, 2009 at 1:30 pm
kid bitzer
what a sad, unedifying spectacle.
March 2, 2009 at 1:43 pm
ari
People used to make Lemonnade out of Lemons by hard work. Now they just bellyache and cry about it.
Are you saying the slaves made lemonade? I suppose they did in some cases. Of course if they refused when asked to do so, they might have been beaten, raped, or sold away from their loved ones by their thirsty (for lemonade, not for blood) masters. But if you’re referring to a broader degradation of the American work ethic, I share your concerns. And I appreciate that you’re really throwing yourself into your trolling. Your ancestors would be very proud, I’m sure.
Ari labeling is a no no.
I’m sorry that you feel persecuted here. If you weren’t white and Southern, I assure you that I’d be treating you much better.
March 2, 2009 at 2:06 pm
JosephineSouthern
Richard Mentor Johnson (October 17, 1780 or 1781[a] – November 19, 1850) he killed the Shawnee chief Tecumseh. What a shame I really admire Tecumseh. However I understand where Johnson was coming from-Bryant’s station and all. (Lemonnade from Lemons). Also see Chief BRYANT-Mohican (look him up, great pic of him and his history).
“The relationship was a major factor in the 1829 election that cost him his seat in the Senate, but his district returned him to the House the following year.” Interesting, they didn’t seem to mind the Chinn relationship. Being from Louisiana I am not shocked. I am kin to some Chinn of KY and also to Pres. TYLER and lots of KY folks, because a lot of them were from VA.
He ran for Pres.and the Virginia’s delegation to the electoral college bucked the vote of their state and refused to cast their votes for Johnson. (wow! nullification)
The War of 1812 was the one MA threatened to secede over, no body told them they couldn’t ever leave the union!
Young people was so strong and responsible during those times – “Johnson was so popular that no one raised questions about his age” (23). Where are they now, all been “shamed to death” about pc slavery- the descendants of those diabolicfal rotten slave masters.
Part of Johnson’s campaign for relief was the abolition of the practice of debt imprisonment nationwide. This was a d…good thing. A lot of stuff he did on bankruptcy, bailouts sounds like today.
This was a little wacky – In 1823, Johnson proposed in the Senate that the government fund an expedition to the center of the Earth.
Yes, we are kin – I had him in my data base as 9th VP, but had never looked him up – not sure how but likely thru Spence, Bledsoe, Cave connections. My Reunion-Sierra database quit working on the relationship program part, gotta get it fixed.
March 2, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Stephen
You know, when I said that neo-Confederates think that slavery was a good thing overall for the slaves themselves, I never thought one of them would be so bold as to actually admit it like this.
And this is a treasure:
I’ve read it several times and simply cannot come up with an explanation for this sentence that does not prove JosephineSouthern to be a racist of the worst sort, though I’m sure we can expect some dissembling about how “anyone” would be upset after a rough trip across the Atlantic. I’m sure that she would include the sailors of the slave ships with those who had terrible trips from Africa.
Ari, I know this thread has started to get on your nerves. Yours is a gentle soul. I really mean that – you’re a credit to us all. But I personally feel that it has the potential to be a valuable resource. Far too often the southern apologists among us hide their true sentiments behind catchphrases like “honoring heritage.” JosephineSouthern has dropped the mask and shown the burning hatred and vicious racism that percolates beneath the surface of every single one of her fellow southern apologists.
March 2, 2009 at 2:15 pm
JosephineSouthern
Are you saying the slaves made lemonade? I suppose they did in some cases.
Well, they certainly did! And I am proud of them for it.
Ever hear the expression – “Pay Them No Mind”, “My head hurts”, I feel down today” instead of I won’t do it.
March 2, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Scott Madin
Here’s what I’m wondering. Ari said, “I’m willing to tolerate pro-Confederate rants. But pro-slavery arguments will not stand here.” And I’m sorry to nitpick, but how can there be a “pro-Confederate” argument which is not, fundamentally, pro-slavery (or, if you think the distinction worth making, pro- the Southern states’ right to have slavery and to have it recognized as valid in the rest of the country)?
March 2, 2009 at 2:22 pm
JosephineSouthern
Well Stephen you are earning your stripes with this remark – sucking on that teat is so sweet for you.
“JosephineSouthern has dropped the mask and shown the burning hatred and vicious racism that percolates beneath the surface of every single one of her fellow southern apologists.”
How vicious you are. So far, I am the only real gentle soul on this board.
Racist was coined by the Marxist and wasn’t even in the dictionary until 1940. Oh how you love to label people racist that keeps your teat sucking going.
March 2, 2009 at 2:23 pm
ari
That’s a fair point, Scott. And I thought about it as I wrote the comment in question. At which time I had in mind something like this: I’m willing to allow people to claim that they’re neo-Confederates because of their staunch support of states’ rights, their love of Southern culture (hey, me too!), or their personal heritage. I’m willing to allow people to make such claims even though I share your sense that racism often lies at the core of the neo-Confederate ideology. But when someone crosses the line and begins to defend slavery overtly, that’s too much for me. To be clear, it’s not that I can’t stand to hear such defenses — though I think this might be only the second or third time I’ve ever been around someone willing to make this case — so much as the fact that I don’t want the comments section of this blog to become a forum in which pro-slavery sentiments are expressed openly. I hope that makes sense.
March 2, 2009 at 2:28 pm
JosephineSouthern
Scott what was the reason we had slavery in the first place?
why wasn’t it done away with when we formed the Compact of States called the Union?
Why is it such a issue today? Other countries don’t seem to have this problem. Could it be that the Union has perpetuated and used this issue as their mainstay (exploited black people) to justify and uphold there invasion and takeover stance?.
March 2, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Scott Madin
Yep, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. (Though I still think that as valid as defenses of “states’ rights” and “Southern culture” etc. could very well be if they existed in a vacuum, devoid of historical context, in actual fact they…don’t.)
March 2, 2009 at 2:35 pm
ari
Again, Scott, I agree. But I also think it’s a positive development that even neo-Confederates are ashamed to admit in public that they think that slavery was a good thing. I’m trying to make sure that this doesn’t become a space in which such claims become commonplace; there are plenty of avowedly white supremacist websites that already tolerate or even encourage that kind of vile crap. And really, if I thought that discussion might change people’s minds, if I believed that pro-slavery sentiments were likely to change in the face of reasoned arguments, I could be persuaded that I’m wrong to ban such comments. But I don’t think that’s the case.
March 2, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Hemlock
…Racist was coined by the Marxist and wasn’t even in the dictionary until 1940. Oh how you love to label people racist that keeps your teat sucking going…
So, a southern lyncher prior to 1940 is not “racist?” HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
March 2, 2009 at 2:38 pm
JosephineSouthern
I never said Slavery was a good thing – as you report – I have said there were good things about it and that came out of it. You put your words in my mouth. A list of pros and cons would help you to put it in perspective why don’t you do that.
No. 1 you wouldn’t be here!
March 2, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Scott Madin
This is certainly true, and I apologize for having belabored the point.
March 2, 2009 at 2:43 pm
ari
Not at all, Scott. It was a fair question. And I’m by no means sure that I’ve come up with the right answer. As for you, J.S., are you saying that I wouldn’t be here had there been no American slavery? Perhaps you’ve extended your genealogical inquiries further than you’ve let on. Otherwise, I’m a bit confused by your comment.
March 2, 2009 at 2:43 pm
JosephineSouthern
Hemlock, have you looked at the stats of lynching. It is an ole boogey man. In proportion to population lynchings from 1880-1940 were very few, and occurred all over the USA, to both white and black, do yourself a favor and look it up. As far as I am concerned Capt. Major Henry Wirz was lynched, as was Capt. Beal in NY. And prob. the female in Booth’s case.
March 2, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Vance
Josephine, if by “pros” you mean the advantages of the institution from the point of view of some actors at the time, I can understand. If you mean advantages from some broader point of view, then shame.
March 2, 2009 at 2:45 pm
ari
Don’t forget Clarence Thomas! Though that one was high-tech, so maybe it doesn’t count.
March 2, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Urk
ok, I’ll bite:
We had slavery because it was a worldwide colonial system of economic exploitation. Part and parcel of the “discovery” of America was its imbrication int he slave economy.
It wasn’t done away with because slave owners had significant influence in the formation of said union, whether it’s the striking of Jefferson’s anti-slavery passages (the writing of which reveals a fraught and fevered ambiguity on his part) or the infamous 3/5ths clause.
Well, other countries managed to do away with it without anyone going to war to defend it, and other countries seem to lack the particular flavor of idiologue who insists on re-fighting said war. But I’d also argue with your assumption that the issue today for most people is slavery itself as much as the aftereffects of slavery, especially the difficulty in guranteeing full citizenship to a formerly enslaved people.
No. However, I’d ask: could it be that “the south” (or confederate and neo-confederate partisans thereof) used a distorted and romanticized vision of a mythical past-place overtaken and invaded to justify and uphold the continued subjugation of the formerly enslaved population and the continuation of an economic order that kept many of the same fat cats on top?
March 2, 2009 at 2:50 pm
ari
Vance, you ruined the joke. [pout]
March 2, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Hemlock
I’m sorry, I’ve been studying for exams, I haven’t been on here for awhile.
A list of pros and cons for slavery? Are you suggesting the timeworn argument that slavery was a profitable institution? See Time on the Cross and fledgling graduate student Clarence Walker’s critique of it. The reception of that review made his career.
Other than that contention, I’d venture to guess that such a list may be interpreted a misguided soul lost in the horrible maze of moral economy.
March 2, 2009 at 2:58 pm
JosephineSouthern
If you looked at these things with an open mind, and were willing to see two sides of the equation, you would see that it is CLASS WARFARE, your driving force. A Struggle for power and money.
Young people was so strong and responsible during those times – “Johnson was so popular that no one raised questions about his age” (23). Where are they now, all been “shamed to death”? about pc slavery – the descendants of those diabolical rotten slave masters.
I don’t know anybody that doesn’t want to see everybody do well.
I mean All groups, all colors of all people in this country. Nobody I have ever known has purposely sought to put people down. They have wanted to see them law abiding, contributing good citizens, and glad for them when they accomplish this.
But you…..your aim is to put Southern White Descendants in the dust bin! Just remember when you climb that ladder stepping on others backs you will meet them on the way down.
March 2, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Vance
Hmm, I’m still too dense to see the joke, even with that prompt.
JS, I am a white descendant of Southern slaveholders. I don’t construe anything here as putting me in the dustbin.
March 2, 2009 at 3:05 pm
kid bitzer
you know, ari, when you said this on saturday night, i really thought you had jumped the gun:
“Wow, good neo-Confederate? Or best neo-Confederate ever? I’d say the latter. ”
but here we are several days later, and our jo just keeps on digging herself in deeper! not only defending slavery, but pooh-poohing lynching! and, with a dose a that classic, “northeastern banker conspiracy”, wink wink, just to make sure no bigotry goes unbigoted.
i don’t see how the judges can resist giving her first prize.
and the great thing is, the more unhinged and morally depraved she gets, the more she blames it on everyone else! i think she gets a ‘stonewall’ with bonus ‘bobby’ ribbons for extra victimology!
March 2, 2009 at 3:05 pm
JosephineSouthern
Hemlock, “timeworn argument that slavery was a profitable institution?”
At least you admit there are 2 sides.
As to Clarence Walker’s critique of it. Not surprised the pc folks went up in arms and tore it to shreds. They can’t afford to lose their teat. PC holds sway with the money and power to back them up.
Tell what good have they done except feather their own nest?