Obama on the FISA bill:
It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses.
We will see it again and again.
Obama on the FISA bill:
It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses.
We will see it again and again.
75 comments
June 20, 2008 at 3:28 pm
bitchphd
Meh. I’m still voting for him, and I’m willing to chalk this up to “sucking it up and dealing with political reality.”
June 20, 2008 at 3:31 pm
eric
B, when I read the bumper sticker and the post it came from, I see much the same message.
June 20, 2008 at 4:33 pm
urbino
This one was, indeed, a sock in the gut. Not just for the position he took, but for the way he took it.
June 20, 2008 at 4:42 pm
blueollie
Talk about a short honeymoon, but they guy hasn’t even gotten elected as yet!
Let’s see what he does in the Senate.
June 20, 2008 at 4:49 pm
ari
Totally unsurprising, in my view. But yes, still very disappointing. Which, again, is totally unsurprising. That said, the bumper sticker is pro Obama. It just happens to be calibrated with the EotAW’s finely tuned Reasonable Expectations Device (RED).
June 20, 2008 at 5:02 pm
eric
the bumper sticker is pro Obama
Of course it is. It doesn’t say, get disappointed by someone who’s been disappointing you since the war of 1812.
June 20, 2008 at 5:07 pm
andrew
It says “new” not “young.”
June 20, 2008 at 5:09 pm
eric
Yes, it does, Andrew. Who’s newer on the political scene?
June 20, 2008 at 5:11 pm
grackle
A paradox of our wonderful system is the Groucho-Marxian fact that those who want the office prove their unworthiness by the nature of their competition.
Boy do I want one of those bumper stickers.
June 20, 2008 at 5:16 pm
andrew
Yes, it does, Andrew. Who’s newer on the political scene?
I was only making a tasteless age joke. Jeez.
June 20, 2008 at 5:29 pm
andrew
Incidentally, Obama (along with Clinton and Graham) did not vote on original Senate FISA. McCain voted yea.
June 20, 2008 at 5:30 pm
andrew
I seem to have lost the words “the” and “bill.”
June 20, 2008 at 5:37 pm
ari
Here they are: “the bill”. Do you want me to insert them above? I’m happy to.
June 20, 2008 at 5:38 pm
urbino
Totally unsurprising, in my view. But yes, still very disappointing.
It’s not that it’s disappointing so much as that it’s manifestly the wrong position on a subject whose right position is very easily found. And politically, it’s a reversion to past Democratic weakness from a campaign that had heretofore run on strength.
Let’s see what he does in the Senate.
Indeed. The rhetoric of his statement, however, doesn’t give much hope.
(NB: Lest I give the wrong impression, I’m not totally down on Obama now. I just really don’t like this particular decision.)
June 20, 2008 at 5:41 pm
andrew
Do you want me to insert them above?
No need. As long as they’re safe where they are.
June 20, 2008 at 5:55 pm
ari
Okay, Andrew. And Urbino, the right decision surely seems rather obvious to people like us — and to hundreds of thousands of progressives and also not-very-progressive civil libertarians. But like Obama’s “Look, I’m a white patriot just like you!” ad, I think we’re not the target demographic for what surely are targeted decisions. So, not only do I still heart Obama, but I trust his campaign to make the choices necessary to get him elected. It just happens that this is a choice that I find particularly unpalatable.
Because for me, as for you, Obama’s claims to respect the rule of law were one of the issues that most drew me to him. And so this is a particularly bitter pill: bad policy about an issue that matters to me and seemed to matter to the candidate. That said, the idea that he’s selling out the left, a meme that has been circulating on some blogs, makes the calculus underlying all such political choices far too personal for my taste. The man will disappoint me. But that’s life. He’s not trying to win my vote alone.
June 20, 2008 at 6:09 pm
andrew
Now that I think about it, Obama voted for the right way on some of the FISA amendments that lost – and voted against cloture – but left town before the final vote on the bill for campaign reasons. So he did take a position against the worst provisions. (Clinton did.) I can’t remember if he issued a statement on how he would have voted at the end.
June 20, 2008 at 6:11 pm
andrew
And once again I failed to fully read my own comment. Clinton did not take a position on FISA stuff – at least not to the extent of voting on it.
June 20, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Cala
God fucking dammit. Senator Dodd should beat his ass. What ari said.
June 20, 2008 at 6:47 pm
urbino
I haven’t heard Dodd’s position on this bill, Cala. Have you?
Yes to all that, ari. I read very, very few blogs, so I’m only tangentially aware of the outrage elseblog.
June 20, 2008 at 6:48 pm
urbino
My point being: any resemblance between my comments and the outrage in other places is purely coincidental.
June 20, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Fontana Labs
I’m in favor of the FISA compromise. Just kidding. But I haven’t been following the politics here– who’s really in favor of immunity, and why? Big Telecom, and the politicians who need its money; people who are keen on executive authority in the abstract; people who are keen on the Bush administration’s access to expanded executive authority;…? How does this add up to a winning coalition, and what does Obama lose by opposing it? Is it the “stop terror at any cost” voter, and does this bloc clearly outnumber the “stop tapping my phone” bloc?
I live in a cave with dialup, you see.
June 20, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Kieran
No surprise there. So, so many jilted crushes on the horizon. Bill Clinton used to seem this way, you know, before his first three months in office.
June 20, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Kieran
I’m willing to chalk this up to “sucking it up and dealing with political reality.”
If it were Clinton, of course, it would be chalked up to conniving unprincipled hypocritical bitchery.
For the record, I don’t even have a vote in this election.
June 20, 2008 at 7:17 pm
ari
It’s gotten so hard to find a nice cave for under half a million these days. Especially one with dialup. As for who’s for the compromise, the entire Republican caucus, the intelligence community (one presumes), Democrats who either reflexively cringe when charged with being soft on terror or those who are genuinely authoritarian, and, perhaps, the next President, who probably doesn’t really mind the idea that he’ll have unfettered power. Because he’ll use that power for good and not evil.
June 20, 2008 at 7:18 pm
ari
For the record, I don’t even have a vote in this election.
Thank goodness, you cynical foreigner.
June 20, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Fontana Labs
But Grover Norquist assured me that the “leave me alone” caucus would…oh hell, this deal is getting worse all the time.
June 20, 2008 at 7:28 pm
urbino
If it were Clinton, of course, it would be chalked up to conniving unprincipled hypocritical bitchery.
If it were Clinton, one wouldn’t need any chalk. She’s been on the wrong side of this cluster of issues more often than not.
June 20, 2008 at 7:33 pm
eric
Dudes, seriously. I’m disappointed, not hurt. This was totally, totally expected. Now if he gets elected and does zip about Gitmo, then I’ll be ticked.
But still not hurt, because honestly.
June 20, 2008 at 7:35 pm
eric
I don’t even have a vote in this election.
How’d you vote on the Lisbon Treaty, then?
June 20, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Kieran
How’d you vote on the Lisbon Treaty, then?
I didn’t have a vote in that one, either, because No Representation Without Taxation.
Empirically, these days the only thing I have decision power over is whether to let my daughter win at Mario Kart Wii, and signs are that soon this power will become moot as well.
June 20, 2008 at 7:46 pm
ari
I exercised the little agency I have available to me and opted for the PS3 instead of the Wii. Lego Indiana Jones is the single best video game ever.
June 20, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Kieran
Lego Indiana Jones
On the Wii, you can really crack the whip.
June 20, 2008 at 7:56 pm
ari
Really? Agency: Not All It’s Cracked Up To Be.
June 20, 2008 at 8:44 pm
urbino
There hasn’t been a good game since Parsec.
June 20, 2008 at 8:47 pm
ari
For me it was Gorf and Galaxian. Those were the days. Oh, also Zork and Castle Wolfenstein on the Apple II+. God, I’m almost unbearably sexy, aren’t I?
June 20, 2008 at 8:57 pm
urbino
Almost.
June 20, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Adam
I’m still a little confused about the FISA bill… I’ve read various summaries, and it mostly seems to take the blatantly illegal program the president set up and add a bunch of oversight and stick it under the FISA courts. It has some provisions for discovery – for one, if you try to sue a company, the attorney general has to say whether or not they did participate and then the company has to produce written assurances to get any sort of immunity. And then, if the company does get immunity, the government still doesn’t. And beyond that, the inspectors general have to make regular reports to congress. All in all, it sounds like the original FISA, but with more congressional safeguards. The only thing in it that seems kind of bad is the immunity stuff, but then, it doesn’t completely close the door to discovery and it doesn’t exculpate the government. So please, I genuinely haven’t figured out how I should feel about this yet – explain why I should or shouldn’t be outraged.
June 20, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Adam
Also, I’ve been lead to believe that Obama understands his constitutional law, so it’s hard for me to believe that he would support the bill if it made a complete mockery of the constitution (as TPM is making me believe is the case)….
June 20, 2008 at 10:57 pm
ari
Um, Adam, we’re trying to talk about video games here. Seriously, though, I’ve been in touch with a friend who has some actual knowledge about this issue. And I’m waiting to hear back from him. He was, earlier today, pretty upset. But he hadn’t yet read the entire House bill. If I learn more, I promise to pass along the good stuff.
June 20, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Adam
Thanks, I look forward to hearing the results.
Sorry for interrupting about video games. I throw my lot in with the Wii, personally. While I used to scoff at such games, I’ve been finding Rock Band to be a lot of fun. When it comes out on the Wii (my more game savvy friends inform me it will), I hope to buy it.
June 21, 2008 at 6:20 am
Jason B
There hasn’t been a good game since Zaxxon on the ColecoVision.
June 21, 2008 at 6:20 am
Ben Alpers
Put me in the “not disappointed ’cause I’m not expecting much” camp.
Obama is better than McCain. And his campaign was less utterly cynical and depressing than Clinton’s.
I’ve yet to see much reason to say anything much nicer about him. His FISA position doesn’t change that, obviously.
June 21, 2008 at 6:35 am
Kieran
There hasn’t been a good game since ullamaliztli.
June 21, 2008 at 6:51 am
Ben Alpers
There hasn’t been a good game since ullamaliztli.
I’ve always kinda liked buzkashi.
June 21, 2008 at 8:03 am
eric
How long can I hold out before I must surrender to the peer pressure you guys are putting on, and buy my kid a game console?
June 21, 2008 at 8:22 am
Ben Alpers
We’re* avoiding a game console for our kids, if it’s any consolation.
____________
* “We”=my wife, who would almost certainly kill me if I got a game console.
June 21, 2008 at 9:01 am
ben wolfson
There hasn’t been a good game.
June 21, 2008 at 9:08 am
Kieran
before I must surrender to the peer pressure you guys are putting on, and buy my kid a game console?
It depends — do you value the love of your child?
June 21, 2008 at 9:24 am
ari
And do you devalue the love of your wife? These are the key questions, Eric. Oh, also: do you want to be cool? Or not?
June 21, 2008 at 11:40 am
eric
do you want to be cool? Or not?
You ask this question as if what I want matters.
June 21, 2008 at 1:26 pm
student
One interesting thing about the new wiretape legislation is that Speaker Pelosi claims that it will really lock Bush in so that the NSA can’t violate the law like it did in the past. The White House will really have to follow the FISA system as the “exclusive” means for authorizing wiretaps (or something to that effect). But as some smart commentors (e.g. at Balkinization) have observed, this can’t be taken for granted; Bush et al bypassed the previous FISA legislation deeming it as an unconstitutional constraint on presidential power. So we can assumed that Bush could violate the new law if and when he deems it necessary. Now if Senator Obama makes a statement to the effect that he would not do such a thing because he disagrees with Bush’s unitary executive interpretation that would be very good. But maybe he has already made such statements. Anyone know?
June 21, 2008 at 3:04 pm
ari
Adam, if you’re still around, see here and here. The first link is courtesy of John Emerson. The second comes from Lizard Breath. I found both in the comments section at Unfogged. My friend in the know still isn’t getting back to me, so I may have more later.
June 21, 2008 at 5:40 pm
urbino
So we can assume that Bush
couldwill violate the new law if and when he deems it necessary.June 21, 2008 at 9:17 pm
ari
Or, Adam, maybe it’s not so bad after all.
June 21, 2008 at 9:26 pm
andrew
I thought everyone already knew the immunity was retroactive.
June 21, 2008 at 9:26 pm
andrew
(Of course with my wrongness on the Constitution thread, maybe I shouldn’t be talking.)
June 21, 2008 at 9:35 pm
andrew
(But I will anyway.) From the link:
This was the idea behind the Specter-Whitehouse amendment. It was rejected handily back in February.
June 21, 2008 at 9:59 pm
bitchphd
Eric: resist the game console pressure. My kid doesn’t have one.
OTOH, you should post a link to the bumper sticker.
June 21, 2008 at 10:01 pm
ari
I think he’s out for the evening. Or he hates me and won’t answer my e-mail. Or he’s waiting to hear from Cala, for whom the sticker originally was made. Or.
June 21, 2008 at 10:05 pm
bitchphd
Oh right. That whole “integrity” nonsense. Whatever.
June 21, 2008 at 10:06 pm
bitchphd
Btw, I’m showing my kid Austin Powers. I don’t think he’s ever seen a Bond film, though. But he says “okay, I got it” about Austin coming from a “more sexist time,” and the humor is broad enough.
OTOH, the fembots with the nipple machine guns, that’ll be fun.
June 21, 2008 at 10:11 pm
ari
Don’t laugh; DARPA’s working on that technology right now.
June 21, 2008 at 10:14 pm
bitchphd
I’d rather forgotten that Austin’s libido was *the entire point* of this movie. Oh dear.
June 21, 2008 at 10:29 pm
ari
Don’t feel too bad; I just let my son watch Temple of Doom, a movie that’s awful, terrifying, and completely sexist/racist in equal measure. And the boy had nightmares because of it. Nipple guns are comparatively small potatoes, I think.
June 21, 2008 at 10:31 pm
ari
And yes, I know that I’ve got the words “nipple” and “small potatoes” in the same comment. Whatever. I’m just a very classy wordsmith.
June 21, 2008 at 10:36 pm
bitchphd
Heh. I’m staying away from Temple of Doom. I was saved from Austin b/c it just became too cringeworthy for PK, who’s of an age to be absolutely mortified by embarrassing sex stuff. I’m hoping, though, that he isn’t getting the idea that sexual desire is *inherently* sexist, b/c that would screw him up later on.
Now he’s watching George of the Jungle (yeah, I know it’s 10:30, whatever, it’s summer. Which I have no doubt is appalling and probably racist to boot. Great parenting R us.
(PK had nightmares a few times b/c we stupidly let him watch Buffy at, like 5? Duh.)
June 21, 2008 at 10:50 pm
ari
Temple of Doom really is to be avoided. But Last Crusade, which we watched tonight on super fanboy Eric’s advice, was quite good: funny, sweet, packed with action, and not much that was scary.
June 21, 2008 at 11:00 pm
bitchphd
Maybe I’ll have to try it again. I remember being disappointed by it back in the day.
I think I always confuse Temple of Doom with Romancing the Stone, but I think that’s probably because they were more alike than one might wish.
June 23, 2008 at 7:49 am
Talk about a short honeymoon « blueollie
[…] Politics Barack Obama is getting pounded in the blogs that I visit because of the FISA bill and his making the decision to “support the compromise” while “working to take out retroactive immunity”. Example. […]
June 23, 2008 at 7:53 am
Katherine
On accountability for detainee issues, he has not made any promises at all (except “no torture” and “close GTMO”, which McCain also promises to do and which leave about two dozen unanswered follow up questions that the press doesn’t know what to ask); I am going mainly on hope about his past record, Con Law teaching, the fact that the habeas lawyers seem to like him, etc. On this issue, he made an explicit promise during the primary, which he has broken. If he’ll do THAT, we have no idea what he’ll do on detainee issues. I’ll obviously vote for Obama, but it’s not motivating me to drag my pregnant self around to canvas for him in the fall, or to donate. To put it mildly.
June 23, 2008 at 7:55 am
Katherine
rather, a promise he is about to break–I guess he still could filibuster. But I’d be pretty surprised.
June 23, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Polemic Pontification » Blog Archive » Behold: The Audacity of Mope
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June 24, 2008 at 8:23 am
BallotVox » Blog Archive » Obama to Support FISA Bill
[…] post about the “Yes We Can” video. On Friday, after Obama’s announcement, it came in handy again (thanks, Sue […]
September 1, 2008 at 1:16 am
Jeff Chappell dot com » Blog Archive » Behold: The Audacity of Mope
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