I have a theory. It’s half-baked — at best. It’s ill-informed. And, I suspect, it’s not particularly novel. Intrigued? Not really? Oh. Well. That’s understandable. But here it is anyway: the Clintons are most effective when they have aggressive enemies. When they’re not playing offense, in other words, but have their backs to the wall. If I’m right about this, Barack Obama is pretty clearly the wrong opponent for them.
Looking back at the 90s, I remember Bill Clinton being at his best when he was on the defensive. And, more important than that, I think he was blessed with excellent enemies, a rogue’s gallery of rabid idealogues that included Newt Gingrich, Henry Hyde, Ken Starr, and a cast of thousands of wingnut extremists. Nearly every time one of them attacked, I recall Clinton getting the better of the exchange. Usually not with a knockout, but on points. He’d outlast his foe, who always ended up looking like a nutjob, a jerk, a buffoon, or some combination of the three.
Because they were. They were so obviously engaged in partisan witch-hunts that fair-minded observers couldn’t help but side with Clinton. Sure, he was an incorrigible cad and a serial liar. But he was also very good at running the country. And, compared to the ridiculous clowns trying to take him down, he was fantastic.
Coming out of Iowa, the same was true for Hillary. With Chris Matthews bullying her, and John Edwards getting in touch with his inner misogynist, their attacks transformed Hillary into a sympathetic wonk, a technocrat with a heart of gold. She could play defense because the right enemies had made her look relatively good.
For the past two weeks, though, the Clintons have been going for the jugular. And it hasn’t been pretty. I’ve already explained repeatedly why I think they’re making a mistake. But now it seems like the voters in South Carolina shared my concerns. At the same time, the basic rationale for Obama’s campaign — he’s a transformative candidate, who’ll bring thousands of new voters to the polls — has been borne out in the results. And, there no longer seems to be any rationale for Hillary’s candidacy, which used to be predicated on her inevitability. This all adds up to bad news for the Clintons. Worse still, coming out swinging tomorrow might not be an option. Wishful thinking? Probably. But allow me one night to dream my fanciful dreams.
All of that said, I’m not making predictions. The Clinton machine is so powerful, and Bill and Hillary so good at the game, that it’s awesome to behold. Bill, especially, loves getting dirty, even if he pretends otherwise (Did you see this gem? Or, for the campaign more broadly, this one?). Maybe, as the previous two links suggest, their southern strategy, deployed in South Carolina, was all about painting Obama as a race man, diminishing his stature in more delegate-rich states to come. I don’t know. So I’ll still call Hillary the favorite. But I think tonight was big for Obama. And I wonder if a 30-point win suggests that, among other things, he’s a tougher opponent for her than she is for him. Because his cool exposes her weaknesses. While she may have to play to his strengths. And against her own.
63 comments
January 26, 2008 at 11:43 pm
urbino
Andrew Sullivan made much the same observation about the Clintons needing aggressive enemies. He diagnosed it as a case of their losing all humility when they aren’t counterpunching.
I think you’re both right. Obama is a difficult enemy for them. For the reasons you mentioned and, let’s face it, also because he’s black. Eviscerating the first serious black presidential candidate isn’t a strategy best calculated to win friends among Democratic voters. Plus, it puts him, in the broadest sense, outside all the usual power structures. Unlike Gingrich and Scaife and all the other rich, well-connected, white GOP attack bots, it’s hard to paint Obama as a political bully and be taken seriously.
January 26, 2008 at 11:46 pm
ari
Do you have a link to Sullivan? I’d like to put that in an update. I don’t read him religiously any more. The whole revival of the Bell Curve debate didn’t sit well with me. Also: there’s an important difference in our views on the Clintons. He hates them; I don’t. I actually think Hillary well might be a great president. It’s just that lately she and her husband have been bumming my ride, harshing my mellow, hobbling my pony, etc. But when the time comes, I’ll vote for her. And Sullivan won’t.
January 26, 2008 at 11:56 pm
urbino
Hmm. I’m not finding it. Hold, please.
January 27, 2008 at 12:03 am
urbino
Sorry, it was Marc Ambinder.
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/01/the_bottom_lines.php
See #8.
January 27, 2008 at 12:06 am
ari
Oh, I don’t read Ambinder at all. I probably should. But I can’t really find additional time in my bloggy schedule for any more Atlantic Voices. Anyway, given that there’s no chance that I ripped him off, I’ll let the link live in the comments, rather than as an update. And now I have to try to write a bit before going to sleep
January 27, 2008 at 1:18 am
Hemlock
The Clintons are most effective after they weather political and/or personal storms (usually the two are intertwined thanks to Billy’s Willy Nilly). For example, press coverage of the mid-90s government shutdown focused on Clinton dealing with the crisis rather than on Gingrich as Lex Luthor. Same analogy rings true with Starr and the impeachment proceedings. Tough circumstances make the Clintons THE Clintons, so to speak. However, aggressive enemies do faciliate identity politics, doesn’t don’t they?
As for the current situation, friends/family that usually vote Democratic have indicated that Hillary’s power-woman image is a bit overdone. Not to say that they don’t support her as a Senator or even President–just that she’s coming off as focusing on power rather than policy. Hillary’s ironically becoming Lex Luthor (at least in their eyes). Her decision to stay with the former President may seem a bit more career-oriented than the devotion voters want to imagine in a candidate (emphasis on the imagine).
January 27, 2008 at 1:52 am
Ben Alpers
I agree, ari. I’d add that the right opponents during the 1990s (i.e. Hillary Clinton’s aptly named “vast right-wing conspiracy”) also very effectively silenced or marginalized progressive opposition to many of Bill Clinton’s worse policies: welfare “reform,” “regime change” in Iraq, and so forth. As I’ve already said, if it weren’t for impeachment intervening, I honestly think that Clinton and Gingrich would have privatized Social Security during the last two years of his presidency.
I fear that a Hillary Clinton presidency would bring us more of the same: a center-right White House fiercely defended by most progressives because of the implacability of its far-right opponents. Not a worse-case scenario–that would be four more years of what we’ve had under Bush–but a close second.
And here’s another relevant link: today’s Frank Rich’s column on how dangerous a Clinton-McCain race could be for the Democrats.
January 27, 2008 at 1:56 am
Ben Alpers
Errata: “worse” for “worst.” Twice.
How much would we have to raise for you to be able to afford a preview button?
(I seem to remember buying a t-shirt from the late Roy Rosenzweig that promised that historians make “big money”? Was he only kidding?)
January 27, 2008 at 4:16 am
AWC
Great to see you Ben (this is Andrew Cohen).
I’m fairly equivocal on the candidates. But Rich’s piece was about as fact-free as a David Brooks column. The polling data (for what it’s worth at this point) does not support his conclusions, in part because American elections so often hinge on the votes of two groups: married white women and white men without college educations. The question is, when compared with Obama, does Hillary gain more of the former than she loses of the latter?
And I can’t help but wonder why you think Obama more progressive than Hillary. If anything, his positions are more conservative (just ask Krugman).
For me, Obama’s best argument is the Congress. With Hillary, the Dems could win the White House but lose down-ticket races in the South and West. Since presidential radicalism is usually a function of the size of the progressive majority, we should support the candidate who can create a bigger coalition.
January 27, 2008 at 4:45 am
Ben Alpers
Hey, Andrew, good to see you, too!
I didn’t mean to imply a “heh indeedy” with my Rich link; just wanted to add it to the mix. I certainly agree that it’s too soon to tell how the general election would turn out…especially how Obama would perform with the two groups you mention. And I certainly think that electablity issues, especially this far out, are very speculative (and not a particular good reason to choose one candidate over another). I suppose I’m inclined to share Rich’s fears about both McCain and Clinton, but readily defer to my cliometric betters (such as yourself) when it comes to the evidence (or lack thereof) for such fears.
As far as who’s the more progressive of the two candidates? I wouldn’t describe either of them as progressive. And I don’t necessarily think Obama is more progressive than Clinton. If I had to compare them broadly, I’d say that they are ideologically nearly identical. I distrust Obama a little less on war-and-peace issues than I do Clinton, and distrust Clinton a little less on domestic issues than I do Obama. Some of the people I most revile in Democratic politics, such as Terry McAuliffe, are close to the Clinton camp. And I agree with you about the down-ticket issues (though the last year has only reinforced my skepticism of what can be expected from any Democratic Congress).
The implicit distinction I was drawing up-thread between a Clinton and an Obama White House was based not so much on a comparison of their political views, but rather on the larger shape of U.S. politics would likely take with Clinton or Obama as President. I know that I’ll be to the left of either of them. The question is, how much political traction would people to their left be able to achieve? Having lived through the ’90s, my guess is that with Hillary Clinton in the White House the answer is “none.” With Obama, I honestly don’t know. So Obama seems marginally better on this count to me.
I suppose that all this has me narrowly preferring Obama, largely because he’s the (potential general election) lesser evil I don’t know. But I’m really not supporting either of these candidates at this point. And I won’t be voting for either of them in the primary (I’m a registered Independent in a closed-primary state, FWIW).
January 27, 2008 at 6:25 am
AWC
Fair enough. But here we see why so very many presidents have had short careers in national politics before taking office. We can invest in Obama in ways we can’t invest in Clinton.
Yet, I’m somewhat skeptical about this approach, as presidential behavior is so dependent on political realities, public opinion, and events themselves. Give a monster like Joe Lieberman a 100 seat advantage in the House and a filibuster-proof majority, and he’d accomplish a lot of progressive things, at least domestically.
And while I can’t really defend this Congress, I will say I understand their reasoning. They believe they will win big in 2008 if they simply do nothing. I have a friend who’s being deployed in two months, so I’m not quite as patient.
Finally, on a gossipy note, our old friend Austan Goolsby is Obama’s top economic advisor. Though he was my rival back in the day, I think that’s pretty cool.
January 27, 2008 at 7:10 am
Ben Alpers
Finally, on a gossipy note, our old friend Austan Goolsby is Obama’s top economic advisor. Though he was my rival back in the day, I think that’s pretty cool.
Certainly beats my old teammate Kris Kobach, who’s chair of the Kansas GOP.
It’s a small social class (or should that be “power elite”?), after all!
January 27, 2008 at 7:40 am
BEW
Many people have mention that Barack will have bigger coattails than Hillary in the down ticket races. Have(are) there polls that show this? All of the stories in the media show the Democrats picking up 7-9 seats in the Senate and increasing their seats in the House. Indeed, this has been the CW since the 2006 election, with no mention of the nominee in the stories.
With Barack’s win in SC, do you think he would win SC in November? From what I heard, there was enormous, record breaking turnout. Is there real chance that the south won’t be solid for republicans? Even if the democrats can’t win, will the republicans have to spend more time and money shoring up their base there?
January 27, 2008 at 8:13 am
Galvinji
Andrew and Ben, keep in mind also that Ted Cruz is a former official in the Bush Department of Justifying War Crimes and Ignoring the Constitution, I mean Justice, and is now Solicitor General of Texas. But perhaps you don’t remember him, as he was a couple of years younger than you.
As for Austan Goolsbee, my brother-in-law the economist knows him as someone who has a knack for writing timely op-ed pieces.
To keep on topic, I’d be interested to hear what makes Ari think HRC could be a great president. I would be surprised if she were able to push much of an agenda through Congress given her likely lack of coattails and the inevitable opposition from the media echo chamber. Like her husband, she will tack to the right, either by inclination or by expediency, to get anything done. So I agree with what Ben says above. I see her as someone who, at best, will restore the status quo ante. Given where we are now, that may be good enough.
And to BEW, I lived in South Carolina several years ago, and unless it’s changed a lot since then, the Democrats have no chance there in November. It is an extremely conservative place, no matter how impressive African American turnout will be. Even center-right Democrats like Alex Sanders — a remarkable man who is notable for being perhaps the only man in the country who was a member of the NAACP and SCV — couldn’t win a state-wide election there.
January 27, 2008 at 8:32 am
Ben Alpers
I was about to mention Ted Cruz. I remember him very well. When I was in grad school at Princeton I’d judge occasionally for Whig-Clio so I got to know him a bit. Wish I could say I was more surprised by his career trajectory.
And while we’re on the subject, Austan’s former partner Dahlia Lithwick is an excellent legal affairs editor at Slate.
Yoram Hazony and Dan Polisar founded the Shalem Center, Israel’s leading neoconservative think tank.
(For those who are wondering what the hell is going on here, this has devolved into a discussion of American Parliamentary Debate Association alums, who also include Andrew Sullivan, Jeff Rosen, and many, many more.)
January 27, 2008 at 8:44 am
ari
The cabal is revealed. But you won’t share the secret handshake, will you? I thought not.
January 27, 2008 at 8:52 am
Galvinji
The initiation ceremony involves watching Austan Goolsbee dance. Are you still interested?
January 27, 2008 at 8:55 am
ari
Only in the rituals. Not actually in membership. My fascination is of an anthropological nature.
January 27, 2008 at 9:26 am
AWC
Sorry. I drop one name and this is what happens!
A longer list of APDA alums is here:
http://www.apdaweb.org/wiki/doku.php?id=notable_gradatutes
Warning David Frum is on the list!
January 27, 2008 at 9:29 am
AWC
Oh, and hi Galvinji. Where are you now?
January 27, 2008 at 11:49 am
Galvinji
Your hometown. Left academia several years ago and am on the fringes of the big business around here, and yes, I am trying to be cryptic. I figure if I’m going to help hijack my friend’s blog I should at least be mysterious. And, Ari, the anthropology is more sad than anything else.
I am sometimes envious of people like you and Ari who chose wisely and are actually able to use your graduate education and have interesting things to say about history and our country. Meanwhile, I’m wondering what I have to do to get on that list you posted.
January 27, 2008 at 12:14 pm
AWC
It’s a wiki, so you simply log-in and make the changes.
January 27, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Colin
1. The coattails argument is that if you bring a on of new voters to the polls, they presumably vote for someone in the downticket races too. Maybe their interest flags by the time they get to the district judges and bond issues, but it couldn’t hurt for Congress.
2. To my taste the best new bloggy source this time around is http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/
3. When you agree with him, nobody is a better reinforcer than Sullivan. It’s a funny talent.
January 27, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Various: walking, science, quackery, Obama, Clinton and the Peril of eary voting. « blueollie
[…] Edge of the American West argues that the Clintons are best when they are confronted directly by unreasonable right wing opponents; going toe to toe with Obama is a completely different matter. […]Looking back at the 90s, I […]
January 27, 2008 at 6:11 pm
ari
Galvinji, I’ve been meaning to answer your fair question about why I think Hillary would be a good president. First, in all honesty, I want to leave myself the option to offer her my full-throated support in the general. Said support is worth precisely nothing, as she’ll win California by a healthy margin, even with Arnold working overtime for McCain or Romney. But still. And so I want to be careful to keep my criticisms muted. Second, she’s excellent on women’s issues and always has been. So, while I don’t agree with Ben’s view that she’s better than Obama on domestic policy (rule of law, being the one that sticks out for me), I still think there’s a lot to like there. Third, her court nominees likely will be strong. And every time I start to think that I might be sick enough of the Clintons to do something rash, I remember the age and health of the so-called liberal justices. Fourth, I’m somewhat persuaded — or at least encouraged — by the argument that she’s battle-tested and will, as a result, be able to fight to win when it counts. Fifth, there is real value in having a woman as president, even if only for the vast symbolic resonance of such a leader.
Okay, I’ve got two kids who are both sick and also very sick of me blogging. I’ll check back in later to see if the APDA reuninion is still underway. Should I bring beer?
January 27, 2008 at 7:34 pm
rationalpsychic
I’m glad someone brought up this observation. Think back to Ms. Clinton’s emotional outtake in New Hampshire. The polls were against her so she was able (in my opinion) to squeeze out some feeling.
I’m sick of Bill having traded on his old friendliness with the African-American community and try to reduce Obama to being in a category of black candidates who have run for the nomination. I thought, for a guy who owes so much of his success to the black community, can he really diminish Obama based on the color of his skin? Yeah, I guess he can.
[Sarcasm coming] Hey, isn’t Obama half-white if we’re going to get down to racial identities here?
January 27, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Galvinji
Ari, I agree with all that you say above except point number 4. Since 2000, I have only seen her “fighting to win” vs. Obama and Edwards (and mostly Obama). She certainly makes Republicans crazy, but I’m not sure why (well, I am, but it’s more for symbolic reasons vs. anything else). Also, you said “great”, not “good” (which is more defensible).
Sorry about that last sentence; you can take the man out of academia but you can’t take academia out of the man…
To return to your original topic, what I’ve been reading suggests that the Clintons overreached (precipitating, among other things, Ted Kennedy’s endorsement of Obama). Recent events do seem to indicate an uncharacteristic tin ear.
January 27, 2008 at 8:41 pm
ari
Yes, I’ve seen the same stuff about overreach. I think it’s fascinating — if true. And perhaps suggests a broader distaste for what appears to be Bill’s unseemly interest in moving back into the White House. At any cost. But even beyond the Kennedy endorsement, I’ve been amazed that Hillary has had so little post-New Hampshire momentum. That was a big win for her. But most of the major endorsements, except for her hometown paper, have been for Obama. It’s a bit odd, isn’t it?
And I really shouldn’t have used the word “great.” You’re right to call me on it. Not being academic at all, I don’t think.
Finally, returning to point 4, I’m guessing that Hillary has been carefully avoiding fights since her election to the Senate. Why? To run for president, of course. And I don’t blame her for that calculation, though her performance as a legislator has ranged from just okay to abominable. Still, I think she has been in the same mode as the rest of the Democrats: do nothing, allow the Republicans to destroy themselves, and pick up seats in November. It worked in the mid-terms, after all. Just to be clear: it’s not a good short-term strategy for the country; but I’d love to see it vindicated over a longer period of time.
January 27, 2008 at 8:57 pm
bitchphd
Bill’s unseemly interest in moving back into the White House.
Unfair. I really believe that the man is–and it speaks well of him–backing his wife 100%, just as she’s done for him for many years. And he’s doing the dirty work so she can stay clean. It’s not working, no, but I think that’s what’s going on.
do nothing
Ahem. Plan B, off the top of my head.
reduce Obama to being in a category of black candidates who have run for the nomination
Problematic (if not inaccurate) formulation here. Of course part of the disingenuousness of (say) the “Jackson won SC” comment is the ability to point out that “first black candidate,” just like “first woman candidate,” is a falsehood, and that even “first with a chance of winning,” while true, is largely true because of the very racism/sexism that the people who support Obama/Clinton on those grounds (like me) reject.
January 27, 2008 at 9:01 pm
ari
Wait, totally fair. I said “appears.” Don’t I get points for properly qualifying my statement? Regardless, I think you’re right that he should be campaigning for her. But getting this nasty isn’t good for the party. And, apparently, isn’t good for her candidacy.
January 27, 2008 at 9:05 pm
urbino
And just plain isn’t good.
January 27, 2008 at 9:41 pm
bitchphd
Eh, I don’t think it appears that way at all. I think it appears like he’s a good feminist guy who’s trying to back his wife but has maybe just a *wee* little old-school chivalry in him and can get huffy if the Mrs. is having a hard time. There are worse things.
I agree that it’s not good for her candidacy. I’m not sure if it’s bad for the party, to be honest. Depends on if she gets the nomination or not, doesn’t it?
January 27, 2008 at 9:58 pm
ari
Yes, the bad-for-the-party argument is complicated. More accurate: bad for my blood pressure.
January 27, 2008 at 10:31 pm
bitchphd
Okay, so it’s bad for the Jews.
January 27, 2008 at 11:21 pm
treetalker7
In short, I am not a politician. Neither is my mom.
But both of us are seriously hesitant about supporting Obama simply because in our view, he is not experienced enough. He’s only spent one or two terms in the Senate, and he has never been governor of a state. Even a governor has contacts to work with. One or two terms in the Senate is not really long enough to gather the networking contacts needed to successfully navigate the Presidency without too much learning curve involved. And even if he had been a governor, Obama would still not have the upper governmental network required to have a second term as president, if elected. That’s the kind of newbie trap Jimmy Carter fell into. Carter was an academic, a nuclear scientist, not a politician. And BOTH Carter and Obama are *not* lawyers.
I’m with ‘bitchphd’: I think Bill Clinton is a determined feminist guy who wants to back his wife, but yes, he’s got that old-school chivalry thing going on and therefore feels he has to fight her battles if the tough gets tougher.
Frankly, I don’t give a hoot about Bill’s “fly” issues. I only know that I think BOTH the Clintons and Edwards are good solid leaders who will do their best for the US, if either camp is elected…but Obama? IMO, he is too wet behind the ears and seriously needs a good fluffy towel to dry himself off before making any more moves towards the Oval Office. There is a *reason* the Founders recommended the President should be no younger than 35. Okay, Obama’s older than that, but in political terms, he still seriously needs a towel.
The Clintons and Edwards camps are clearly well-seasoned and ripe for the proper placement in higher offices.
That’s all I can say without talking completely out of my rear.
Oh, and technically, I mostly support Hillary, but I can go for Edwards if he’s chosen. At least we know that the Dems–ANY of the three running–will not buy out the Supreme Court just to be in the Captain’s Chair.
But…all that said…I guess if Obama is elected, he’s better than a Republican. *shudders*
January 27, 2008 at 11:29 pm
bitchphd
Well, to be fair, you know, he’s got as much experience as Clinton does in electoral office. Right?
January 27, 2008 at 11:48 pm
ari
Thanks for the comment, treetalker. We’re glad you could join us. That said, I’m with B about the Hillary v. Obama experience factor. And also: how do you figure that Edwards has more experience than Obama? I’m having trouble with the math.
Still, I think that your misgivings closely mirror those of many other Democratic voters. My dad, for example, looks at Obama and sees a young kid, a Senator not much older than I am. Which, I think, explains why older voters* have been sticking with Hillary. For the moment. And yet, Obama has been picking up endorsements from some pretty seasoned folks. Teddy Kennedy, for example, knows both Obama and Hillary very well and has chosen to back the former. Endorsements are a weird thing, to be sure, and not really a measure of much that I can discern. But I can’t easily dicount Kennedy’s judgement.
* Not puttting you in this camp, I don’t think.
January 28, 2008 at 1:53 am
Ben Alpers
So, while I don’t agree with Ben’s view that she’s better than Obama on domestic policy (rule of law, being the one that sticks out for me), I still think there’s a lot to like there.
I think you’re misreading what I wrote, Ari. I said that I distrust Clinton a little less on domestic issues than I do Obama. For Krugman-like reasons, I think her inadequate healthcare plan is a little more honest than Obama’s inadequate healthcare plan. And unlike Clinton, Obama has on occasion been willing to mimic right-wing talkingpoints about the insolvency of Social Security. I think the two of them are fundamentally similar in their domestic views, but Obama gives me just a little more to worry about than Clinton.
January 28, 2008 at 1:59 am
Ben Alpers
Ari, how would you draw the distinction between the two of them on rule-of-law issues?
They look pretty identical to me on, for example, FISA telcom immunity (i.e. willing to say the right the things when pressed but utterly unwilling to invest political capital in stopping it).
Both of them said that they opposed Mukasey’s nomination as Attorney General; neither of them bothered to show up to vote against it.
January 28, 2008 at 5:22 am
Al in Austex
I found this site when trying to do some layman’s research on the potential war crimes committed by the OVP cohorts , it was linked to United States vs Alstotetter “searched I googled”.
My biggest concern is to restore our standing in the international community. I have a little one man /vehicle ground transportation service in Austin , Texas-and every overseas customer I pick up laments what the USA has become re Abu Gharib et al. So which candidate now running can restore our good standing in the world ?
Will David Addington , Yoo & even the VEEP ever be made to answer in a court of law did they or did they not committ war crimes ? My belief is that Harmon, Pelosi , and other Congressional leaders are also complicit in sullying our country’s good name.
Which candidate will best put right the abuses of the last seven years ?
Plus its reported that Mukasey has a portrait of George Orwell haning in his office – whats up with that ?
January 28, 2008 at 6:35 am
Galvinji
Treetalker 7, Obama is a lawyer, and a former professor of constitutional law.
And while I agree with the commenters above that his willingness to defend and support his wife is admirable, Bill Clinton is no ordinary husband, but rather the former president of the United States and still the most recognizable Democratic political figure. And it’s one thing to support his spouse’s candidacy; it’s another to do so in unsubtle ways (including the coded and uncoded racial appeals of recent days).
January 28, 2008 at 8:38 am
Colin
Where do people get this stuff? I mean seriously, where do they get it? Obama has held political office since 1996, four years longer than Hillary Clinton. Anyone who has done two minutes of poking around would know he’s a lawyer.
Edwards, whom treetalker7 can also support, has precisely *one* complete Senate term.
If the race included a former Secretary of State or a large-state governor, I could understand someone marking an experience differential. But Obama, who worked his way up the political system without starting with wealth or connections, is the most politically experienced candidate running. What is *with* this condescending “good fluffly towel” business?
January 28, 2008 at 11:41 am
bitchphd
What is *with* this condescending “good fluffly towel” business?
This is a rhetorical question, right?
January 28, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Colin
Not entirely. I’m trying to imagine the place from which that kind of infantilizing metaphor makes sense — especially from someone who is, one would guess. fairly young.
I can imagine plenty of plausible reasons to oppose Obama’s candidacy. But it’s weird to deny that you’re dealing with a remarkable individual with a serious record of accomplishment, including more experience in elective office than either of his two opponents. This doesn’t mean he ought to be President, but it means he has a claim to be treated as an adult.
Connect that with an apparently widespread willingness to believe anything you hear about Obama or when that fails, to just make shit up. An epistemological abyss opens — maybe you humanists will have a better analysis. Sorry to pile on, but it’s a *very* strange text up there — “fluffy towel,” “well-seasoned for proper placement,” “shudders.”
January 28, 2008 at 2:35 pm
ari
I think the “shudders,” in fairness, were a response to considering a Republican president. Also: my sense is that people who don’t support Obama are getting pretty frustrated about the passion of those who do, ie. calling them Obamabots (sp?) and questioning their ability to see reason. Which frustration, it seems to me, goes a bit beyond the usual emotion one sees in closely contested elections. In part, and here I’m totally speculating, I think the presence of the Paul supporters has softened the ground for charges that Obama’s partisans are irrational, part of some personality cult. But whatever. The point is this: frustration leads to rhetorical excesses. And that’s what’s starting to happen. Particularly on the part of Clinton supporters, whose candidate is having a rough go of it lately.
None of that is by way of excuse for treetalker; I wouldn’t presume to speak for her or him. Instead, please read my comment in the spirit in which it was offered: as a series of observations of the ebb and flow of the campaign season.
January 28, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Ben Alpers
In part, and here I’m totally speculating, I think the presence of the Paul supporters has softened the ground for charges that Obama’s partisans are irrational, part of some personality cult.
My totally speculative guess would have been that the passions of 2004 “Deaniacs” softened the ground for these charges…especially since my sense is that Dean’s base was somewhat similar to Obama’s, and Clinton’s is somewhat similar to Kerry’s. There also message similarities (change vs. experience). And Terry McAuliffe’s presence on the Clinton campaign gives it a kind of anti-Dean quality as well.
Also Obama has a secretary called Dean, while Clinton has a secretary called Kerry. Kerry gave his Iowa victory speech in a theater and then walked to a warehouse, while Clinton gave her New Hampshire victory speech in a warehouse and then went to the theater.
I’ll stop there (the first half of that was actually serious, fwiw…)
January 28, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Colin
Sure. Just by way of further musing, if you step back and look at it coldly, Clinton remains the most likely nominee — it’s certainly not as though she’s lost. It seems an odd moment for frustration.
Part of the gulf may be different experiences — my political memories begin with 1968 and I couldn’t read the last two paragraphs of this http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/28/us/politics/28kennedy.html?scp=2&sq=ethel+kennedy&st=nyt
without weeping. For some of us this candidacy strikes chord that for others it doesn’t.
I have no trouble affirming that Hillary Clinton and John Edwards have lived honorable lives and that reasonable people can support them.
January 28, 2008 at 3:29 pm
ari
Clinton remains the most likely nominee
Yes, I think that’s right. But that also might turn the temperature up even more, as there’s no frustration like the inevitable candidate’s when the road to the nomination proves rocky. The surely would apply to that person’s partisans
And also, I think Ben is probably closer to the mark than I was. The anger over the Dean “insurgency” certainly was something to behold. No reason to think any of that has abated.
And finally: all of this is probably a very good thing. I like the idea that the Democratic electorate is this fired with passion. I really don’t believe — at least not yet — that people, no matter who they support in the primaries, won’t coalesce when it comes time to try to beat the Republican nominee in the general.
January 28, 2008 at 3:31 pm
ari
And Colin, don’t get me started on the RFK/Obama parallels. I “shudder” at the prospect of tempting fate. I really do.
January 28, 2008 at 4:19 pm
bitchphd
I truly think that the impression that Obama is a “lightweight” is not free from racial inflection.
January 28, 2008 at 4:22 pm
urbino
This:
Also Obama has a secretary called Dean, while Clinton has a secretary called Kerry…
cracked me up.
I’m still having a hard time with the chivalry theory of Bill Clinton’s behavior. Even if I accept it as accurate, I don’t see what difference it makes. He’s still using race as a wedge. It really makes little difference to me whether the man himself is, in his heart a racist; so long as he’s appealing to racism, he’s a racist. (Seems like I had a discussion about this re Reagan, recently. Was that here?) And so long as he’s appealing to racism, it doesn’t matter whether he’s doing it for chivalrous reasons or for selfish ones. He shouldn’t be doing it.
I hear the arguments for wanting a battle-tested nominee to go against the GOP attack machine and all, but surely there are some limits. Aren’t we supposed to be better than them, at least on this score? Don’t we rightly berate them for this kind of thing? Isn’t that why we’re over here, and not over there with them? Because that’s the kind of thing they do, and we’re the people who don’t do that?
As I said elsewhere recently, besides the racism itself, I think the thing about the Clinton campaign that’s really set a lot of Dems back on our heels is that, in its appeal to racism, it looks and sounds like a GOP campaign.
January 28, 2008 at 4:37 pm
ari
I recommend this song, which might help you reconcile (not) your feelings about Bill’s (maybe) race-baiting.* This song, by the way, is what finally made me sever ties with the Cleveland Indians and their appalling mascot, Chief Wahoo.
* So many caveats, so little content.
January 28, 2008 at 4:46 pm
eric
I’m actually a little peeved at Jon Stewart for carrying the Clintons’ water on the “(maybe) race-baiting.” I wonder if he’ll stop doing that, after the “black candidate” comment.
January 28, 2008 at 4:53 pm
ari
The Jew is using the black as muscle. Or maybe that doesn’t apply. But I never tire of saying it. And yes, it does seem that the recent spate of “make-no-mistake-this-isn’t-about-race-but-have-you-noticed-that-Senator-Obama-is-black” comments seem to have annoyed a number of previously neutral parties. Yglesias, for example, has been pretty hard on Hillary for the past few days. As has Josh Marshall. And Ezra Klein. Of course: the Jew is using the black as muscle. So what do you expect?
Holy crap! I went looking for a Youtube of “the Jew is using the black as muscle,” and I found this little ray of sunshine. Be advised: the internet is a scary place.
[Editor’s Note: I’ve removed the above link because we try not to associate with hate groups. Especially when I can’t figure out what they’re saying.]
January 28, 2008 at 4:57 pm
ari
Serious question: should I take down that link?
January 28, 2008 at 4:58 pm
eric
No, Stewart has been saying the Clintons are not race-baiting.
January 28, 2008 at 4:58 pm
eric
Yeah, probably.
January 28, 2008 at 5:03 pm
ari
No, Stewart has been saying the Clintons are not race-baiting.
Yeah, I know. But: Blues Brothers! Takes me back…
And the link is gone.
January 28, 2008 at 5:25 pm
bitchphd
Yeah, I’m not really trying to excuse the Clinton race-baiting. The chivalry theory was only offered as a counter to Ari’s thing about Clinton’s unseemly desire to return to the white house, or whatever it was.
The race-baiting is part of the Clinton willingness to play dirty, if that’s what it takes. It’s not exactly the most admirable characteristic.
January 28, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Walt
My speculative guess, which has the virtue of being 100 percent correct, is that every election cycle, a certain number of people fall in love with certain candidates, and seem like obsessive crazy people from the outside. I can’t remember a Democratic Presidential race that didn’t have that, other than ’96.
January 31, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Amerikanske Tilstande » Blogarkiv » Send flere fjender!
[…] er historikeren Ari Kelman, der fremlægger denne interessante tese på sin interessante blog, og måske er der noget om […]
April 1, 2008 at 1:20 pm
treetalker7
Well, after having read the comments responding to my original 2-cents, I confess to a number of things:
1)Yes, by comparison to a majority of you, I am young. I only just turned 30.
2)I did not know Obama was a lawyer, and that he had been in office longer than Hillary.
3)I also did not know that Obama was/is a professor of constitutional law.
Experience, race, gender etc aside, what is going to prove rocky for BOTH Obama and Clinton no matter which one goes into the Oval Office, will be the close votes within the House and Senate.
I may be “wet behind the ears” myself and be an unwitting parrot of what my mom says, based on what she thinks she knows. But I do have something of an understanding of a deadlocked Congress since I watched the Congressional shutdown happen while I was in high school back in ’94.
Colin, if I could go back to 1968 and experience both what you and my mom experienced, I would. But as such, I can’t. I can only read about what went on. So you’ll please excuse my own lack of experience and my own idealistic logic.
Deep down, I am having troubles deciding between the two candidates. They both have reasonable credentials. But when it comes down to it, only one of them has experienced being in the White House in something of a leadership position, albeit indirectly. This may seem quixotic and idealistic, but I would think that kind of experience would prove invaluable for someone looking to get nominated–especially if they have an inkling of the “potholes” and “pitfalls” that may lie ahead.
Now, I still may be underestimating Obama. He may have intuitive savvy that matches Clinton’s. And his ability to appeal to the younger sector of America is also a huge factor. I’ve also read parts of his speech about the race issue. He is indeed eloquent.
But I’m the kind of person who says, “yeah, he can talk a good game, but will he walk his talk?” I, like many other younger people in America, dislike hypocrisy. I don’t care who it is, be they businessperson, politician or preacher or just a mother or father down the street.
This candidacy is giving us, the citizens of America to finally come to terms with the white/black, man/woman issues that plague our collective consciousness. And this will be a litmus test to determine which of the liberal/moderate camp can actually stand up and say they themselves are neither racist or sexist and that they can honestly go to the polls and vote their conscience based on content of character and experience and not on social hot-buttons.
FWIW, I am female.
April 1, 2008 at 1:24 pm
treetalker7
“This candidacy is giving us, the citizens of America to finally come to terms with the white/black, man/woman issues that plague our collective consciousness.”
That should have read “…giving us, the citizens of America the opportunity to come to terms with….”