Partly for fun, partly to make a point, I’m writing this post without referring to any texts, either online or on paper. Which should explain, if not excuse, any paraphrases or errors. The point may or may not become clear by the end of the post. This is not going to be an “FDR is better than Lincoln” post; you have been warned.
We know a great deal about Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt, but what we know about Lincoln explains him; what we know about FDR only obscures him further. Superficial as it may sound, there is something meaningful in the contrast between the lean-and-hungry Lincoln’s look as against the well-fed FDR’s features.
Lincoln’s story is familiar: from modest origins, he read law and became a successful attorney for the Illinois Central, among other clients. A less-than-illustrious military career in the Blackhawk war, a background as a thoroughgoing Whig (Henry Clay was his “beau ideal” as a statesman) and a short stint as a Congressman, during which he supported the “spot resolution” challenging President Polk to show on what spot, exactly, the Mexicans had invaded US soil, allegedly providing a pretext for the war.
He had a “lavender” streak, his admiring biographer Carl Sandburg wrote; he had a close relation with Joshua Speed. And his ambition was a little engine that knew no rest, his law partner William Herndon claimed. (Critics later said that in his Cooper Union Young Men’s Lyceum1 address Lincoln warned his contemporaries against ambitious men like himself.) His marriage was not especially happy.
He had no very advanced views on race, though perhaps no very backward views either; there is a much-mulled-over episode in which a traveling Lincoln encounters some slaves on a riverboat and notes their relative cheer – rather than turn this into a homily that African Americans were fit for bondage, as many white people would, he considered it a lesson on human nature, how people can adapt themselves to almost any circumstance. Publicly, of course, he committed himself to white supremacy and sought with evident seriousness to solve the problem of post-emancipation race relations by seeking to colonize American blacks in Africa. He seems always to have believed slavery was wicked, though he never emphasized this as much as one might wish.
He had a sense of humor he liked to inflict on others; his backwoods jokes did not always go over well but as President he did not have to care. A brooding and melancholy man, he loved Shakespeare and in the depths of the war would like Macbeth consider himself stepped in blood so far he might as well go over as go back. He saw clearly he might well die; perhaps he believed he should. He made great use of the English language and wrote his own prose that sometimes, as in the rhyme that climaxed the Second Inaugural (“fondly do we hope” etc.) slid over into poetry.
And the war he did not seek consumed and redefined him as a man of resolve for its duration. He seemed never at ease, yet he acted as if he thought himself never out of place, going even to the front at City Point during the war to see the armies that advanced at his behest. Strong in war, he would surely have been weak in peace. While he could not have been so personally ridiculous as Johnson, he almost certainly would have sought a lighter peace than could have made the white South acknowledge and learn to live with its defeat (“with malice toward none”, you know).
Thus what we know of Lincoln tells us much what we would expect of him – an ambitious man who acted in keeping with his ambition, but guided by at least a modicum of principle: slavery was wicked, and the slave power a representative of wickedness on earth, he became when need demanded it the agent of its destruction. In an earlier or later time, his Whiggish belief that business had the good interests of the American people at heart would have made him a less admirable figure; as it was it put him behind high tariffs and the Union Pacific Railroad, which were among the unbeautiful creations of the Republican Party.
Contrast Franklin Delano Roosevelt, born to a rich and political family in which he was overshadowed, as anyone would be, by his cousin-uncle Theodore, but also a bit by his mother, too. Regarded widely as a nonentity, nicknamed the “Feather Duster” (for his initials and his lack of gravitas), he missed election to TR’s social club Porcellian and did not distinguish himself in the classroom or out. In politics he vaguely followed Woodrow Wilson, whom he sought vaguely to resemble, and stepped into TR’s shoes as assistant secretary of the navy. As a Vice Presidential candidate in 1920 he lost disastrously and there was no indication he was going to be heard from again; he admired Herbert Hoover.
The cliché that hardship made him must partly hold true. Both the polio, and the crisis in his marriage – when he discovered he truly loved a woman who was not his wife, yet was prepared to give her up – turned him inward, pressing him onto an inner strength of some kind. But did the crises make that strength, or just disclose its existence to him? Always private, he became if anything still obscurer and harder to read, more self-reliant.
Even his governorship and 1932 campaign did not quite predict the president he would become – the elements were there, certainly, but so were other, contrary indicators. He became the champion of the poor, more vigorously so as the hard years passed, a frank crusader for the downtrodden. He tried to remake the Democratic Party in 1938 into a truly liberal party by campaigning against its reactionary Southern elements.
That he failed should not blind us to his conviction that he should try, from … principle? I am not sure this is right. He was ruthless when he had to be. And the language of morality was not naturally his. He seemed to regard extremism – fascism, anti-Communism, racism – as in bad taste, more than anything else. Perhaps this is an indication of what Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., called his “first-class temperament”, a kind of blithe self-assurance, a devotion to goodness out of unthinking natural behavior. Which is not to say he didn’t blunder into evil; he did, spectacularly, in the case of Japanese-American internment. But guided by his … again, it’s hard to ascribe to him a specific moral lodestar or principled catechism, just a second nature that he consulted and trusted more than any counsellor … guided by that temper, he much more often than not made good decisions.
He seemed to have been sincerely pious (in a way that Lincoln, the author of a book on unbelief, is supposed not to have been) and when he called on God he sounded much as if he were calling on a senior version of himself, a stern and kindly patriarch with His own inscrutable purposes. He could not command the language, but he could mean what he said in a way that inspired and guided his hearers (thinking here of the D-Day prayer, among other remarkable non-oratorical speeches). He had a talent for leadership and inspired loyalty among a variety of lieutenants not predisposed to his politics, which made him a great commander-in-chief with generally good strategic judgment.
And as an architect of peace he is unparalleled. That the postwar world was prosperous, rather than desperate, surely owes in part to the precedents he established for continuing the New Deal into the peace. And the push toward collective security he began during the war continued into the 1940s, with great and good effect. We might have been better off had he lived even a few further months, if only with time to finesse his own deceit in the process of peacemaking, rather than leave his successor to blunder through the complexity he left behind after twelve years in the presidency.
Again, unlike Lincoln, none of this seems predictable even in retrospect, perhaps least of all the mild but undeniable arrogance with which he ran for, and won, the White House four times. He did not seek or give hint of greatness before the years of crisis settled on him.
I am not here trying to rank them, though readers of this blog know well my opinion, both jocular and serious. But by comparing them off the top of my head I am trying to demonstrate to myself something that is not, I think, a product of my own negligence, but a problem inherent to the two men: even with my own greater knowledge of FDR’s life and career, he is not as clear to me as Lincoln, nor perhaps ever can be. And I think that is not because he was smarter than I am (that’s the TR problem), but because he was more thoroughly unknowable.
1Corrected per Corey Robin’s gracious comment.


59 comments
December 26, 2011 at 4:54 pm
Corey Robin
Nice piece. In the 3d graf, though, I think you’re referring to Lincoln’s Young Men’s Lyceum speech from 1837 rather than his address at Cooper Union. The first is where he warns of men of ambition.
December 26, 2011 at 5:06 pm
eric
Thanks. I’ll add a note.
December 26, 2011 at 5:19 pm
Corey Robin
Considering you did this all from memory, methinks a tiny error is pretty damn good! God knows, I have a lot more even when I have the texts at my disposal.
December 26, 2011 at 11:42 pm
kathy a.
as a lay person, i have come to be fascinated by the role that eleanor played in FDR’s success during both the great depression and WWII. their love may have ceased to be romantic, but they ended up a formidable team during two of the worst crises of the nation, with her directly observing and visiting places he could not go, then carrying forward his legacy of peace once he was gone.
lincoln and FDR seem to me reasonably similar, in that they acted for the larger good when crisis struck; both were men of vision for the future. if lincoln seems more clear-cut in his vision and understandable as a person, perhaps that is partly a function of him living before any person, even a president, could possibly be so visible to ordinary citizens as FDR was, given media developments of his day.
December 27, 2011 at 7:28 am
myles
I really enjoyed that. Impressive!
December 27, 2011 at 3:10 pm
Anderson
I’ve read only two FDR bios, the ones by Jean Edward Smith and Conrad Black (yes, that one — I actually liked it better, maybe because it was more detailed), and am glad to see that my inability to get a grip on FDR’s character is not (entirely) my own fault.
Bleg: is there such a thing as a standard FDR bio, The One to Read?
December 27, 2011 at 3:41 pm
eric
J. M. Burns’s is probably closest. That’s two volumes, though. Brinkley’s new brief sketch is very good.
December 27, 2011 at 3:52 pm
Anderson
Two volumes is okay, but Burns’s was so old, I thought someone must’ve found out something since then. Guess not!
Thanks very much — will read. “Brief sketch of FDR,” like “one-volume survey of WW2,” is a book I hope never to read again.
December 27, 2011 at 4:31 pm
david
This is really interesting. As I was reading I realised how little I really know about FDR (as opposed to, say, the politics of the New Deal, or the Dems of the period more generally). I know that on the Lincoln side, despite your point about the respective clarity of the two men, historians continue to disagree – sometimes pretty strongly – which makes me wonder how contested the study of FDR is. Do historians still claim to have got at the ‘real’ FDR?
December 27, 2011 at 11:31 pm
Fred List
tariffs were the most beautiful thing of the old Republican party.
no country has ever developed but through industrialization; industrialization is impossible for less developed countries if their markets are flooded with foreign goods.
know your economic history. the correlation between mercantilism/protectionism and fast growth is universal and is no accident. (see the work of eminent economic historian paul bairoch)
December 27, 2011 at 11:34 pm
eric
Fred: I know my economic history sufficiently to say it ain’t the case that a tariff is a tariff is a tariff: there’s a big difference between a Hamiltonian tariff for a developing country and a Republican, post-Civil War tariff for industries that are no longer infant.
December 28, 2011 at 10:29 am
Main Street Muse
“Strong in war, he would surely have been weak in peace.” Would really like to know the basis of that statement. Seems a stretch of an assumption…
“Thus what we know of Lincoln tells us much what we would expect of him – an ambitious man who acted in keeping with his ambition, but guided by at least a modicum of principle: slavery was wicked, and the slave power a representative of wickedness on earth, he became when need demanded it the agent of its destruction.”
You seem to have a bare minimum understanding of Lincoln. Prior to his election as president, he was a man who failed at business, failed at politics (losing the senate seat twice, serving in Congress for only one term). In war, he failed to see any action that would prove him either brave or cowardly.
Nothing he did prior to his election as president can be used to predict the will and power he exerted as a war-time leader.
He excelled in law and in storytelling – and his presidency provides the singular narrative of America – that we were a nation founded on the principle of “liberty for all.” In times of stress, he turned, always, to the founding documents, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. His belief in the “equality of all men” came from those documents – and also from his own life – he was, after all, an ill-educated, self-made man who emerged from the poverty and violence of the American frontier to seize the presidency.
He was indeed an ambitious man, but his ambition was tested all too often by failure. What was “expected” of him is something that we see only in hindsight.
December 28, 2011 at 12:00 pm
eric
how contested the study of FDR is. Do historians still claim to have got at the ‘real’ FDR?
david, I’m not sure that anyone really claims this.
Burns’s was so old, I thought someone must’ve found out something since then. Guess not!
Well, wait, Anderson; I think we have a different definition of “standard.” Certainly there are a few new findings, perhaps most from international sources – some of these appear in Brands’s bio, and then there’s Plokhy’s book on Yalta. But I don’t think any of these really shifts the standard view that much.
You seem to have a bare minimum understanding of Lincoln.
Could be!
“Strong in war, he would surely have been weak in peace.” Would really like to know the basis of that statement.
Well, there’s the Second Inaugural, for a start. More generally, there’s his evident reluctance to do much for racial equality, probably because his heart was never in it. And as I say above, his non-emancipation-related policies were fairly consistent with the rest of Republicanism.
December 28, 2011 at 2:28 pm
liberation
a man who failed at business, failed at politics (losing the senate seat twice, serving in Congress for only one term).
Ideological and increasingly regional schisms on federal commerce and state fiscal policy spurred a fracturing of the first dual party system during this period. Lincoln fused the business of politics into a presidential nomination within six years of the formation of the Republican Party. His election, of course, presaged civil war.
December 28, 2011 at 4:07 pm
Main Street Muse
To Eric, how do you interpret the Second Inaugural to know Lincoln would be weak in peace? I don’t see that how the desire to “bind up the nation’s wounds” to be a sign of weakness. Would love to know to know where you see Lincoln’s weakness revealed in that speech.
I grew up in “the land of Lincoln.” His was a most fascinating life. Don’t know if you’ve ever made the trip to Springfield, IL, but it’s a “must-see” destination for any fan of the 16th president. One must start at New Salem before moving onto the Lincoln Home, Tomb and Presidential Library to truly understand where the man came from and just how far he rose in stature.
[WRT to his position on racial equality, it is interesting that a man whose wife was raised in a slave-owning home became the president who freed the slaves. His marriage was complex, not always unhappy. (http://amzn.to/u2cVNN). It is possible he had syphilis....]
December 28, 2011 at 4:26 pm
eric
Would love to know to know where you see Lincoln’s weakness revealed in that speech.
It’s not specific to me, mind you, but the theme of taking possession of the sin of slavery for the whole country, not just for the South, and putting it behind the nation seems to me to bode poorly for any prospect of radical Reconstruction.
That, and of course his opposition to Wade-Davis, and a belief, based on the scholarship of Michael Perman, that a policy of Reconstruction that signaled no weakness would have been the only one with a chance of succeeding, leads me to this belief.
December 29, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Anderson
Is the Brands bio good, then? I’ve read his American Colossus, which was interesting as an example of how to get your manuscript rejected from the Oxford History of the U.S. (if that’s what really happened). He seems a bit on the light side, but perhaps a better biographer than straight-up historian?
… Re: Reconstruction, I take your points about Lincoln, but then, Reconstruction as implemented was itself a failure. I’m not really sure what could’ve done better: there was just too much pathology in the South for it to be healed in a generation, I guess. Would Lincoln have finessed it better? Would he have been a great peacetime president? We will never know.
December 29, 2011 at 3:21 pm
rea
the theme of taking possession of the sin of slavery for the whole country, not just for the South, and putting it behind the nation
Well, but (1) he was right that slavery was the fault of the whole nation, not just the South (although he makes it perfectly clear that if the whole nation was responsible for slavery, the South was responsible for the war), and (2) he did not say a word about putting slavery behind us.
December 29, 2011 at 3:47 pm
eric
Well, he did though: he construed the war (for as long as it should continue) as the price paid for slavery. War ends, price is paid.
December 30, 2011 at 6:32 am
rea
he construed the war (for as long as it should continue) as the price paid for slavery. War ends, price is paid.
That’s a very strrange reading of the passage. Bear in mind that Lincoln was speaking in March 1865, about a month before the end of the war, and the speach makes it clear that Lincoln understood that the end of the war was near, although precisely how long it would last was not predictable. Far from saying that the price had been paid, he was saying that a much longer war would be no more than the country deserved, because the price had not been paid.
Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.”
December 30, 2011 at 7:54 am
TF Smith
Interesting read on both; not certain that I agree that the impact of Reconstruction under Lincoln can even be “predicted” – certainly seems he would have been less likely to deal with the white establishment than Johnson; I’d guess the his policies in Tennessee and Louisiana in 1862-65 come the closest we have to a case study and I’d argue Lincoln was not exactly gentle in his use of federal power to ensure a liberal (progressive?) political outcome in those cases. Granted, wartime, but I’d guess they are the closest analogues to an actual Reconstruction regime during Lincoln’s life.
On FDR, I think he generally was smarter than anyone in the room, considering the results – but that he (presumably) used the ability to make others think they were putting something over on him to his own benefit, especially in terms of gaining policy test cases that could be adopted or set aside as needed.
As far as FDR biographies go, what about Frank Friedel’s single-volume?
Best,
December 30, 2011 at 9:08 am
Dan
“even with my own greater knowledge of FDR’s life and career, he is not as clear to me as Lincoln, nor perhaps ever can be.”
It seems to me that the very fact that you know FDR better might be what renders him more mysterious to you. The more we know, the less clarity and greater ambiguity the object of our knowledge takes on. I say this because my own take is precisely the opposite of yours: FDR appears to me as having relatively little depth–what you see is what you get. Lincoln, on the other hand, appears to me as more unfathomable. Surely he was ambitious, as you suggest, (which successful political figure is not?) but “guided by a modicum of principle” seems entirely too glib as a characterization of the relationship between his political ideals and his behavior as a candidate and a statesman, suggesting that he drifted into an antislavery politics by happenstance. Perhaps having just re-read Harry Jaffa’s Crisis in the House Divided, Daniel Howe’s treatment in The Political Culture of the American Whigs, and Foner’s recent book on Lincoln and Slavery, I find this hard to accept. The very diversity of interpretive understandings of Lincoln– that he has continued to provide fodder for historians and for the public imagination, in which there are many Lincolns– suggests anything but a clearly understood and definitive figure. I am not saying that my altogether too glib understanding of FDR is correct; I am saying it might be a function of how much less I know about him than about Lincoln.
December 30, 2011 at 1:50 pm
Main Street Muse
From Lincoln’s second inaugural….
“Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came.”
A man who would “accept war rather than let it [the nation] perish” has a stiff backbone – he was no Neville Chamberlain – and certainly he was no Andrew Johnson. We cannot possibly know how reconstruction would have happened under Lincoln’s guidance.
And the racial hatreds that enabled slavery to exist continued to tear at the nation for a century after LIncoln’s demise. Such hatreds were deeply rooted, and not simply contained in the south. No one president could have solved that challenge in a few short years.
December 30, 2011 at 1:56 pm
eric
Sorry, I’ve no sympathy for “we cannot know.” (This blog does after all have a whole category for counterfactuals, which I, if not my co-bloggers, take seriously.)
And it’s as if you, MSM, and rea also, didn’t even notice my mentioning his opposition to Wade-Davis. The evidence we have, both rhetorical and in legislative maneuvering, does not give us room to believe Lincoln would have supported sufficiently radical Reconstruction that, per Perman and others, would have been necessary to call Reconstruction a success.
December 30, 2011 at 2:25 pm
TF Smith
So is there a spectrum between the 10 percent plan and Wade-Davis that would satisfy your expectations, or was Wade-Davis – 50 percent plus one loyalty oath from 1860 census voters, disenfranchisement of all confederate veterans, etc. – the only way forward?
One question I have on Wade-Davis is that if the loyalty oath requirement was 50 percent plus one of the 1860 voters, was there any former rebel state that could have reached that threshold in 1864-65? Could North Carolina have even qualified?
And if not, would the practical result had not been military government for (I’d guess) decades?
As a practical point, the 10 percent plan at least allowed the creation of state governments that freedmen could – potentially – participate in; Wade-Davis basically would have postponed local (as in state) government until when? 1870? 1880? 1890?
Given that both concepts were wartime measures promulgating an occupation era policy, I’m not sure that any can be read as a strong pointer toward peacetime policy, but I’m curious as to your thinking as to how long military government coould have been sustained in a political universe bounded by the requirements of Wade-Davis?
Best,
December 30, 2011 at 2:28 pm
eric
TF, you do like to ask questions.
December 30, 2011 at 2:39 pm
TF Smith
Sorry, but hey, I expect your seminars are well worth it…but I’m long past the point where I can apply to the UC.
Obvious reference, but “being pumped into is never an exhilarating process…”
Best,
December 30, 2011 at 9:19 pm
Main Street Muse
“Sorry, I’ve no sympathy for ‘we cannot know….’”
Really, Eric, you simply cannot know how Lincoln would have handled reconstruction based on his pocket veto of a bill that was written before Sherman’s entrance into Atlanta, before his march to the sea, before Appomattox, before the end of the Civil War, before Lincoln’s re-election as president.
And in July 1864, when Lincoln pocket vetoed the Wade-Davis bill, General Early’s troops were closing in on Washington.
Reconstruction was as divisive an issue as slavery. You simply cannot say without any doubt that a bill that disenfranchised anyone who supported the secession (virtually the majority of the men in the South) would have been THE successful approach to reconstruction.
I agree that Lincoln took a more generous view to reconstruction than those who supported the Wade-Davis bill. Lincoln’s goal, always, was the preservation of the Union. A bill that disenfranchised anyone who fought for the Confederacy did not achieve that goal. The radical approach is not always the only and right way.
December 31, 2011 at 5:26 am
John Emerson
“With malice toward none, with charity for all”, and they shot him. Plenty of Southern Republicans hate Lincoln even today.
December 31, 2011 at 10:57 am
eric
I know we cannot know without doubt. But I’ve no sympathy for the view that we cannot know, therefore we mustn’t hazard an educated guess. We have evidence, whIch does not point toward a radical Lincoln. I think it would have taken a radical approach to Recobstruction for it to succeed in any meaningful sense. And I’m not alone. Note I’m not claiming that the radical view is always or only right; please don’t put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that the scholarship on Reconstruction says that a more radical approach was called for – Lincoln wasn’t going to support it. I believe therefore that a Lincoln presiding over Reconstruction would have ended up with a rebellious white South, few substantial gains in African American civil rights, and in short much the mess we had in actual fact. I would be happy to entertain a contrary argument that Lincoln would have been greatly successful, but it would have to be an actual argument, not “we cannot know.”
December 31, 2011 at 1:00 pm
TF Smith
What is your read on how occupation/reconstruction proceeded in Louisiana and Tennessee under military government and during the initial steps toward resumption of local government in 1862-65?
My understanding – which is limited, I acknowledge – is that Louisiana, Tennessee, and areas adjacent (Natchez, for example) were on their way toward developing a reasonably “civil” society, certainly in relative terms vis a vis the antebellum period. The case I am most familiar with is Natchez, where resident AAs and many from the surrounding country were building a pretty active community, economically and otherwise – part of that may have been the small but relatively deep-rooted coommunity of free people of color in the District, of course,
Best,
December 31, 2011 at 1:05 pm
eric
My understanding is that while there were places in which Reconstruction seemed to proceed more or less well during the war – the Sea Islands would have been another – these were overtaken by the restoration of power to white Southerners. Louisiana in particular was a model, wasn’t it? with its new constitution that failed to do much for African Americans, with its laws against mobility and its institution of sharecropping.
December 31, 2011 at 2:10 pm
silbey
(This blog does after all have a whole category for counterfactuals, which I, if not my co-bloggers, take seriously.)
Hah!
December 31, 2011 at 2:42 pm
Anderson
I’m not sure what a more radical Reconstruction would’ve looked like, but it might well have resulted in a renewed civil war that the North simply lacked patience for.
The North simply did not give enough of a damn about the South’s blacks. Nothing Lincoln could have done would have significantly changed that.
December 31, 2011 at 2:50 pm
eric
… which is not a case that Lincoln would have been a successful Reconstruction president. If anything it’s a case that, had he lived, circumstance would have ensured that we remember him as strong in war, weak in peace.
December 31, 2011 at 9:35 pm
John Emerson
A Duke of Cumberland experiment would have been well worth trying, whether or not it turned out to be “successful” in the crass utilitarian sense of the word.
January 3, 2012 at 7:55 pm
TF Smith
Dr. R –
Rauchway vs Foner – interesting match-up.
Best,
January 3, 2012 at 8:24 pm
eric
Is there some context to that suggestion?
January 3, 2012 at 8:50 pm
TF Smith
Pages 335-336 of paperback edition of The Fiery Trial…
Best
January 3, 2012 at 8:53 pm
eric
It’s not me vs. Foner; it’s the historiography vs. Foner’s brief, book-closing, sentimental pro-Lincoln fillip.
January 4, 2012 at 10:10 am
Main Street Muse
Eric, can you explain how disenfranchising southern voters (as called for in Wade Davis) would have created a successful reconstruction? Seems contradictory to the aims of reuniting the country. How would that have worked?
January 4, 2012 at 10:12 am
eric
I think our definitions of “successful” differ. I’d prefer to see African Americans have civil rights before reuniting the country, if “reuniting the country” means conciliating treasonous white southerners.
January 4, 2012 at 12:05 pm
Main Street Muse
What prevented reconstruction under Johnson from being a success? With Lincoln out of the way, weren’t radical republicans in control? Do you think that reconstruction as implemented was done in a compassionate manner, in line with Lincoln and less the radical republicans?
[I have not studied reconstruction as you have, so do not have the answers. If you have a book to recommend, I'd love the title. When I was in school, the scholarship we studied viewed Lincoln's compassion as the key in a more successful reconstruction, but Booth's bullet destroyed that path forward.]
What do you think would have been the most effective way to reconstruct the country after the Civil War? Do you believe the radical approach would have helped diminish the racial hatreds that we see even today?
January 4, 2012 at 12:23 pm
eric
Johnson was what prevented reconstruction under Johnson from being a success; he was far too conciliatory and gave too much away too soon to the white South.
I’m not comfortable with your use of the word “compassionate”; what might look compassionate to white Southerners was pretty hard-hearted to black Southerners.
I’d recommend Michael Perman, Reunion without Compromise. Also previous treatments of Andrew Johnson on this blog, like this one.
January 8, 2012 at 12:49 pm
TF Smith
But doesn’t Perman himself argue in “Emancipation and Reconstruction” that the Republicans were too factionally divided to succeed at Reconstruction no matter who was president – i.e., “the task was simply beyond the resources and capabilities of the party” (p. 102)?
And at the same time, I think he also argues that the the one federal opportunity to provide for a truly far-reaching reconstruction policy was in 1865, when the US could have essentially dictated terms – which raises the question that if true, how much longer would the war have lasted – as a guerrilla conflict if nothing else – absent Lincoln’s conciliatory policy?
And if one accepts the argument that the US could have dictated terms to the white south in 1865, then does Johnson really strike anyone as being better able to manage that policy than Lincoln?
Best.
January 8, 2012 at 3:36 pm
eric
TF, I’m not sure who you’re arguing against anymore. Nobody said Johnson was better than Lincoln. What I said was “Strong in war, he would surely have been weak in peace. While he could not have been so personally ridiculous as Johnson, he almost certainly would have sought a lighter peace than could have made the white South acknowledge and learn to live with its defeat”.
January 8, 2012 at 6:49 pm
TF Smith
So if not Lincoln or Johnson, who was going to “make the South acknowledge and learn to live with its defeat”?
Hannibal Hamlin?
Best,
January 8, 2012 at 6:55 pm
eric
Look, again, I don’t know who you’re arguing with. My claim is that Lincoln, had he lived, would have carried out a Reconstruction we would remember as weak.
January 10, 2012 at 9:22 am
Main Street Muse
Eric, under what scenario would Reconstruction have worked? Should all rebel soldiers been jailed? How do you define a strong reconstruction? Who would have been the best leader for that time, if not Lincoln?
Frankly, Jefferson’s the leader to blame for the problems of reconstructing the nation after the Civil War (Thomas, not Davis). Along with the other founding fathers…..
January 10, 2012 at 9:28 am
eric
MSM, you and TF Smith seem to believe I made an argument that someone would have been better than Lincoln. I didn’t. I said, and I repeat, “Strong in war, he would surely have been weak in peace. While he could not have been so personally ridiculous as Johnson, he almost certainly would have sought a lighter peace than could have made the white South acknowledge and learn to live with its defeat”. I’m sticking with that.
January 10, 2012 at 2:03 pm
TPB
Not being a big fan of counterfactual history, I leave the debate about what non-zombie Lincoln would have done reconstruction-wise; I would just like to not that “not have been so personally ridiculous” may be the only counterfactual I think I can endorse whole-heartely
TPB
January 13, 2012 at 10:44 am
TF Smith
Actually, I was just trying to understand your point – which is, if I read you correctly, that not even Lincoln was going to establish a Reconstruction policy that would satisfy a 21st Century view of race relations in America.
Which is, I think, a pretty safe conclusion. I imagine he would have fallen short on gender, sexuality, and religious equality issues as well, from a 21st Century POV…
Best,
January 13, 2012 at 11:03 am
eric
not even Lincoln was going to establish a Reconstruction policy that would satisfy a 21st Century view of race relations
Wow, it’s very hard to communicate a simple point. That is not at all what I’m saying. In fact what I’m saying is this, which I’ll quote again: “he almost certainly would have sought a lighter peace than could have made the white South acknowledge and learn to live with its defeat”.
I defy you to find any such fatuous invocation of present-day morality as you impute in that clause.
January 13, 2012 at 11:24 am
TF Smith
Sorry, I went to a state university. Bear with me.
So absent anyone who could have or would have forced an as yet undefined “heavier” peace, was there any way in the actual 19th Century that the “white South (would) acknowledge and learn to live with its defeat”?
I mean, Johnson (zombie, non-zombie, or otherwise) obviously didn’t do it; and in your view, non-zombie Lincoln wouldn’t have done it…
Right?
Or did I miss some nuance yet again?
In contrast, Foner’s “sentimental” view is no one can say if non-zombie Lincoln – whose views on the question certainly changed over time, as per that nifty little chronology on pages 339-345 of “Fiery Trial” – would or would not have gone farther toward the mountaintop in a non-zombified 1865-68 than he did in 1861-65.
Best,
January 13, 2012 at 11:51 am
eric
Sorry, I went to a state university. Bear with me.
I see no reason for you to adopt this attitude, TF. Nobody accused you of being obtuse because you went to a state university. Indeed, nobody has accused you of being obtuse.
But what’s your actual point? I’m going to say mine again, because it seems very hard for me to get across: “he almost certainly would have sought a lighter peace than could have made the white South acknowledge and learn to live with its defeat”.
Now, as I pointed out before, you keep asking questions. Instead of doing that, why don’t you say what your point is.
January 13, 2012 at 12:12 pm
TF Smith
My point is that it appears Foner’s POV is different than that of yours on this question, and that – given that the 19th Century US, the Civil War, and Reconstruction is what Foner studies – as such, it may be worth considering.
Your area of expertise is 20th Century US, reform politics, and the Depression/New Deal; equally, I’d consider your POV on questions about that era as worth considering.
Not going for the appeal to authority here, but more the core competency issue.
Where the balance lies is a moveable feast, obviously, but if I’m hiring someone for a given position, generally I go for the candidate with demonstrated expertise in a particular discipline.
A US to 1870 expert is not going to do much for the department at dear old Ivy or Directionally Challenged State when it comes to filling the Modern Middle East slot, for example. YMMV, of course.
But, this is, after all, your bar, and I thank you for the opportunity to drink here. I’ll leave it at that.
Best,
January 13, 2012 at 12:20 pm
eric
As I pointed out upthread, TF, it’s not me vs. Foner here. Foner’s bit in Fiery Trial is at odds with the historiography – including work by my graduate mentor George Fredrickson.
January 14, 2012 at 7:15 am
kevin
My point is that it appears Foner’s POV is different than that of yours on this question
And, as Eric has far too patiently tried to explain, Foner’s POV is different than that of virtually every other historian active in the field. He’s an esteemed historian; he’s not God.
For the love of
GodFoner, let it go.January 17, 2012 at 4:25 pm
Malaclypse
It saddens me to report that I found out about this somewhere other than here.