Sybil tells of the development of a troubling classroom dynamic: some of the male students in her survey course seem to have a hard time taking a pretty, young female instructor seriously, and as a result, in class they either doze, disrupt, or sulk. Unfortunately, dealing with them has been hard on the other students, leading to a classroom atmosphere which is tense and generally unpleasant for everyone.
Sybil’s an experienced instructor and I suspect she doesn’t need advice and her post didn’t solicit any, but her difficulty struck me as an instance of a problem that easily generalizes away from the specifics of her situation. Whatever the ultimate source of the toxin, it’s likely those of us who have taught have all had classroom environments become unpleasant and unproductive places. (Not you. You’re an excellent instructor. Your friend.)
What’s worked to restore a pleasant environment in which to learn and teach? What hasn’t? If you’ve been a student in a class that foundered, what things worked to right the course?
35 comments
September 25, 2009 at 9:07 am
zunguzungu
I find it useful to remember that they often aren’t being sulky in a passive sense, but they’re actively trying to make you feel their sulk. Which means that when you deny them the positive feedback of showing that they’ve succeeded in making you uncomfortable, you frustrate them in a different way. So I find the best solution to the sulky student is to show them — sometimes aggressively — that they cannot possibly win, that they lack the resources or the smarts to get me down. And the other students will then take their cues from you. Dealing with the problem head-on is important, but the thing that prevents their poison from infecting the other students is showing that you yourself haven’t been poisoned.
September 25, 2009 at 9:18 am
Neddy Merrill
I find it critical to conduct myself with dignity in every possible way, from my choice of topics to my personal appearance.
September 25, 2009 at 9:18 am
Texas in Africa
Well, I’m a young woman and I teach at a men’s college, so I’ve thought about this a bit. (Although interestingly, I haven’t had nearly as many issues of this sort here as I did teaching in huge lecture halls in grad school.)
I throw disruptive types out. Usually, I only have to do it once before word gets around that I mean business. This is one place where the student’s consumer vision of higher education can work in our favor. They feel they’re being cheated if they get kicked out of a class without a refund. It’s also embarrassing for the student, which encourages others to get their acts together.
I’ve also found that it’s really important to keep things formal and act the part. I always dress up to teach. My older, male colleagues can get away with jeans and a polo on Fridays, but I can’t. They take me more seriously because I’m not dressed like they are. I don’t answer questions about my personal life or my weekend activities. I really try not to be mean about it. It’s possible to do all of this in a friendly, approachable way. I just say, “What relevance does that have to today’s lecture?,” “Disruptive behavior is not acceptable and you need to leave class now,” or something along those lines, and move on.
September 25, 2009 at 10:18 am
rosmar
For me, what has worked is to be forthright with the whole class (if emailing the sulky or otherwise unpleasant student privately first doesn’t work). I ask the class what they think is going on and what they think we can collectively do to make it better.
So far (knock on wood) that has always turned a bad class into at least a mediocre one.
September 25, 2009 at 10:21 am
rosmar
And I totally agree with the commenters above about the importance of remaining professional (including professionally pleasant) myself.
If the class has a hard-working, professional feeling, I don’t mind answering questions about what I’m doing over the weekend or the like at the start of class before we get down to business. Friendliness and community-building go a long way with my students, and there is evidence that feeling connected helps many students learn.
September 25, 2009 at 10:33 am
Spiny Norman
@ zunguzungu: “So I find the best solution to the sulky student is to show them — sometimes aggressively — that they cannot possibly win, that they lack the resources or the smarts to get me down.”
Wow. I am so, so glad that I did not spend a term in class with you. Such disdain for your students… and yes, I am a professor myself. I simply can’t imagine taking such an approach with my students. Maybe it’s time for a sabbatical. Or retirement.
September 25, 2009 at 10:35 am
Spiny Norman
@ Texas in Africa: dressing up is very important. I wear shorts and T-shirts when I’m not lecturing, but a jacket and tie when I am. Always. It conveys the specialness of the relationship. It shows that you respect the students, and that they should respect you.
September 25, 2009 at 10:58 am
ari
Norman, zunguzungu suggests, at least as far as I can tell, that he counters sulky students, those who are actively trying to poison the classroom environment, by remaining relentlessly upbeat. And you read that as disdain for his students?
September 25, 2009 at 11:06 am
kathy a.
but spiny norman — it does not sound like you have needed to deal with the kind of difficulty that sybil and zunguzungu have encountered, which they perceive [and probably correctly] as having its roots in sexism. and the circumstances are such that being cool and ignoring the behavior isn’t working; the class is turning toxic.
sometimes, outrageous comments or questions can be turned to productive discussion, and other students can be drawn in to give counter-arguments. sometimes that just doesn’t work, though.
as a student, i appreciated instructors who could get a discussion going, and also those who firmly said “that’s off-topic. i’ll be glad to speak with you after class, but we need to move ahead now,” and then moved on.
although i’m not an academic, i have done professional training seminars where i needed to do the same thing — the problem there was generally older guys who wanted to tell war stories and were taking things off-track. it is a genuine problem when someone in a group wants to dominate, and even more so when their purpose is disruption.
September 25, 2009 at 11:10 am
kathy a.
correction: sybil reads it as sexist in nature. i do not know about ZZ, but agree with taking control of the situation being important to the rest of the class.
September 25, 2009 at 12:22 pm
zunguzungu
Gender is not the problem with me (being male), except insofar as the offenders always seem to be male. But I agree that a student who is so angry at having to be in the classroom and therefore poisons the atmosphere of the class is being aggressive in way that has to be dealt with forthrightly. Maybe “dealt with” is a strong term, but continuing to engage with them in as upbeat a manner as you can, (as Ari rightly read me as saying) shows them that you aren’t letting their attitude bully you. And since it *is* a kind of bullying they are doing — and not a rare experience, I think — refusing to be bullied by remaining blissfully unaffected by their negativity is a kind of counter-aggression, and I think they understand that (which is why I put it that way). But it keeps the classroom environment from being poisoned by the student who snickers loudly at random points when I’m talking, shakes his head while frowning (but won’t verbalize), or any of the other assortment of things a student can do to take the class’ attention off you (or the discussion at hand) and put it on his own displeasure. In smaller classrooms, this is especially crucial, I find.
September 25, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Jess Nevins
Not just telling the poisonous student to leave, but explaining to the other students why the poisonous student was asked to leave. Partly it’s the appeal to consumerism Texas In Africa mentioned, but partly also an attempt to treat the students like adults, and expect them to be emotionally mature enough to understand what I did wasn’t personal, but was a professional decision.
(Usually works. Not always, but usually).
September 25, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Sybil Vane
Having now received a couple of emails from (female) students telling me how the atmosphere in the class is a shame or how being in a group-work situation with one of the trouble makers was a total disaster, I feel increasingly that there is some instructional value in letting (what I read as) the source of this problem – sexism – be the source of the problem. Or, IOW, not adjusting my pedagogical approach in a way that implies it is an instructional problem. Which, for me, means telling the students’ coach that he either gets them in line or they fail my class.
Of course, if this doesn’t actually result in an atmosphere improvement, then I will try something, because it’s shitty for the other students to be uncomfortable. I am thinking about a long round of group presentations.
September 25, 2009 at 1:28 pm
kevin
That’s the best route. Nothing gets the attention of a student-athlete like a coach who’s been warned he might flunk a course.
September 25, 2009 at 1:29 pm
kevin
Also, give my best to Dorian Gray.
September 25, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Spiny Norman
“Norman, zunguzungu suggests, at least as far as I can tell, that he counters sulky students, those who are actively trying to poison the classroom environment, by remaining relentlessly upbeat. And you read that as disdain for his students?”
That’s not all zunguzungu wrote. “So I find the best solution to the sulky student is to show them — sometimes aggressively — that they cannot possibly win, that they lack the resources or the smarts to get me down.”
Show ‘em “that they lack the smarts.”
Sorry, but that’s a despicable tactic. Establishing your authority is one thing. That’s quite another.
September 25, 2009 at 8:07 pm
ari
Norman, your reading strikes me as remarkably uncharitable. zunguzungu’s point, or, more accurately, my reading of his point, is that you can’t let the students trying to hijack the classroom see you sweat. You can’t let them think they’re getting the better of you. With that said, his way of accomplishing his goal — relentless optimism — matters a great deal. He’s not talking about humiliating anyone, in other words; he’s talking about remaining positive. But as I’m not zunguzungu, I can’t really say for sure if that’s what he means.
September 25, 2009 at 8:22 pm
aaron
Spiny, I’m curious what you imagine that “despicable tactic” to be? Do you think I tell them they’re stupid? What do you picture me doing? I can understand how my phrasing could lead you to misinterpret what I’m saying, but my point is exactly the opposite of “establishing authority.” I’m not forcing them to listen to me or respect me or anything like that; I’m showing them that they can’t dampen *my* enthusiasm. Have you misunderstood me (or I’ve made myself misunderstood) or do you you really find that a despicable tactic?
To repeat: I’m talking about students who come into the classroom with the intention of actively taking their pain — their frustration at having to take a required comp class — and making it everyone else’s, which they do it by dripping disinterest, contempt, and disgust. This poisons the atmosphere of the class. I am thinking of three specific students I have had who did this, at least semi-regularly, and with the last two, I did the same thing: I continued to engage them as if I (and everyone else in the class) couldn’t tell that they were having a full-time snit fit. I answered their questions ten times more generously than the spirit in which they were asked, and I used every ounce of my acting talent and Christian forbearance to disallow them to provoke me or make me angry. I turned, in short, the other pedagogical cheek.
In that sense, when I say “they lack the resources or the smarts to get me down” I may have chosen the word “smarts” poorly, but I still think my point was obvious: I am a more experienced at dealing with this kind of situation than they are at creating it. I have more patience than they have impatience. I am better at refusing to be provoked than they are at provoking. All of this takes the wind out of their sails, and while it might not make them into perfect students, it *does* show them that they can’t control the classroom environment.
September 25, 2009 at 8:24 pm
aaron
Oh, and thanks Ari. That is what I was trying to say (though I must admit, it is sometimes hard not to take a foxhole/bunkers attitude with some of the really hard nuts. When someone is trying to psychologically bully you, which I used to get a lot more when I was younger than I am now, it’s hard not to play that game too)
September 26, 2009 at 12:13 am
Spiny Norman
“Spiny, I’m curious what you imagine that “despicable tactic” to be? Do you think I tell them they’re stupid? What do you picture me doing?”
You certainly indicated that it was your intent to make them feel, and perhaps look, like stupid losers. You frame it as a contest, one in which you will win and they will lose.
“So I find the best solution to the sulky student is to show them — sometimes aggressively — that they cannot possibly win, that they lack the resources or the smarts to get me down.”
The language reminds me of cops who have spent too much time on the streets.
September 26, 2009 at 12:26 am
dave
If the student is making it a contest, how much pedagogical Jedi mind-force do you need to both win it, and not win it, as you seem to want, our spiny friend?
September 26, 2009 at 4:20 am
dana
You certainly indicated that it was your intent to make them feel, and perhaps look, like stupid losers.
No, that’s not his words here. I read him as acting more like one might treat a bully or a sulky toddler; acting out isn’t going to get the student the reaction or (negative) attention he wants, because the teacher is going to be smart enough not to play that game. I’m presuming nightsticks and citations for disorderly conduct don’t figure into it here.
September 26, 2009 at 5:48 am
drip
These guys are athletes? That solves one problem, although not Sybil’s. I would let the tutor or coach know in a NY minute. It would a) establish a record (just wanted to let you know that your boy is on track to a semester off your team), b) put you in that wonderful class of professors you should avoid if you don’t want to learn anything, and c) give you a classroom where you have a chance to perform as an instructor instead of as a child psychologist.
Norman — someone is going to be in charge in any classroom. The idea is to make sure it’s the instructor. If the instructor has some bad techniques (bullying, for example) that is an issue for a different Friday Pedagogical Forum post: The Cure for a Poisinous Instructor, something with which no commenter here seems to need help .
As distasteful as the original topic was for me to read, the comments, here and at B, PhD. give me great confidence that students who wish to learn are being taught by people who wish to teach them. Good luck to all.
September 26, 2009 at 7:46 am
URK
SN, it seems obvious to me that in the context of Aaron’s comment “smarts” means social smarts, strategic smarts, being better at ending the game that the student is bringing into the class than the student is at keeping it going. And, in my experience, things like this very much are contests. Pretending that they aren’t such seems to me as silly as pretending that Aaron’s comment implied a psychological beatdown of said student. “winning” = “ending” the game here, & its as good for the student doing the disrupting as it is for the rest of the class when done in the positive and upbeat way that Aaron outlines. In my expereince students who try this and find that they can’t draw the professor into any kind of open unpleasantness sometimes settle in and start dealing with the material. If not, then at least their problem doesn’t become other people’s problems or draw in folks who are sitting on the fence but find such an atmosphere a good excuse to ignore their work too.
Of course, you can read Aaron’s comment that way if you want, against all of the offered interpretations and explanations, including those by the original author. I’m certain that will be a very rewarding exercise. Have a nice day!
September 26, 2009 at 9:06 am
zunguzungu
No, actually SN is completely right. By “refusing to be bullied by remaining blissfully unaffected by their negativity” I obviously meant “crush their spirits and destroy all hope, leaving them longing for the sweet release of death or the weekend, whichever comes first.” I am Galactus, Eater of Students!
More seriously, the *really* hard thing is what drip points out, the fact that being a responsible teacher actually *does* sometimes require the assertion of a certain kind of authority. Now, this was more or less the exact opposite of what I was talking about (which is why I’m so bemused by Spiny Norman’s anger): I was saying that the precise *worst* way to deal with a confrontational student is by being confrontational back. This is why the way to deal with those students is to refuse to allow them the satisfaction of getting to you (and the moment you play that game with them, the moment you try to fight with them for authority, you lose). But those are the bad-faith participants, the ones who are trying to actively sabotage the class, and even though there are enough of them, in my experience, to be a problem, the much bigger issue for me has always been how to deal with the well-meaning students who, without meaning to, create a different kind of bad classroom scenario.
I don’t have nearly as much trouble with the bad-faith students, actually; I find it much more difficult to know what to do with, for example, the student who offers up a ridiculous tangent to every single question you ask, making coherent discussion of whatever issue it is difficult. In practice, the other students can be brutal on those kinds of students, and I’ve read lots of class evaluations expressing frustration that I let so and so “dominate discussion.” But the fact that they are really *trying* makes it really hard for me to do anything but let them walk all over me; the last thing you want to do is punish a student for misguided good intentions.
September 26, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Spiny Norman
So perhaps I misread what you wrote, zunguzungu. Perhaps you can see, from what you wrote, how easily it might have been misread?
In any case, the last paragraph in your @9:06 post really distills a lot of my own experience, as well.
September 26, 2009 at 4:06 pm
kvond
One wonders if either the justices that exacted the law against Turing, or the department officials who justified the revocation of his security clearance, could in their duties have passed the “Turing Test”.
September 26, 2009 at 6:02 pm
silbey
So perhaps I misread what you wrote, zunguzungu. Perhaps you can see, from what you wrote, how easily it might have been misread
You do note that zunguzungu said exactly that in one of his comments? That what he had said could be misread and that he was happy to explain what he meant?
September 26, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Charlieford
1) I include the following in my syllabus so my butt is covered should I have to operationalize the nuclear option (which I only do as a last resort): “Cell-phones and other electronic equipment should be turned off unless you have informed the professor of an emergency. Basic considerate behavior is expected at all times: ie, no off-topic or private conversations; no sleeping; no texting; etc. Chronic violations in these or other areas (after a warning) may earn a grade reduction.” I figure, hey, I wish everyone was motivated purely by the eros of knowledge, but some folk are more bovine in their calculations, and I need to work with them, too. Usually an e-mail does it.
2) I’ve found it’s very important to me to regulate my own attitudes. (This has become much, much easier as I’ve gotten older, btw.) So, no matter how big and hulking they may be, I constantly remind myself that in many ways, they’re just children (especially the misbehaving ones). I try to remember they probably can’t help it: they are who they are for a variety of reasons, and it’s not really me that’s giving them the fantods. I try to remember that one day they will be more mature, and they may look back on this behavior they’re exhibiting with some shame, and as I talk with them, I try to keep that person in focus, not their undeveloped self before me. This can be hard at times.
3) Finally, I do try to also remember that I’m right and they’re wrong. By that I mean, people do need to mature, to subordinate their need to be entertained to a variety of objective demands; that their parents are in part paying me to nudge their kids down that path (even if I would prefer that not to be in my job description, it’s true); that it is good for the student too to learn this and that at this moment I’m actually their best friend, and I’m being a better friend to them now than they are to themselves; and finally, that this is serious business: in addition to all the pious community of knowledge-talk (which I believe), people are spending astronomical sums to be here (at my school above 700 bucks a credit hour) and a lot of them are paying their own way, and I owe it to all of them to get this class in line and keep it from being ruined by a dedicated doofus.
4) I almost never get to the harsh disciplinary point though–somewhere I’ve made it work, or used humor on them. Once I had some folk who just wouldn’t shut up (before I learned to amend my syllabus). One day I got so frustrated I stopped, pointed at them (down actually, I was on stage) and said, “Guys! Do I follow you back to your dorm room and harass you with lectures on Reconstruction?! No, I do not. Can I get some of the same consideration from you? Do ya think that’s too much to ask?” That could have really blown up in my face since it was spontaneous and if they didn’t shut up I had no plan B in mind, but fortunately as I turned back to the board I heard a student whisper loudly, “That was awesome!” and a bunch of them snickered at the talkers. End of problem. I’ll admit that was really pure luck though.
September 26, 2009 at 9:30 pm
kathy a.
charlie, that was brilliant! and also great luck. but you had the righteous position. love that it ended that problem.
September 27, 2009 at 9:28 am
zunguzungu
no matter how big and hulking they may be, I constantly remind myself that in many ways, they’re just children (especially the misbehaving ones). I try to remember they probably can’t help it: they are who they are for a variety of reasons, and it’s not really me that’s giving them the fantods. I try to remember that one day they will be more mature, and they may look back on this behavior they’re exhibiting with some shame, and as I talk with them, I try to keep that person in focus, not their undeveloped self before me. This can be hard at times.
This is very well put. There is such a fine line that one has to navigate, and figuring out how to treat students like children in a good sense (i.e. patiently remembering that “one day they will be more mature” and that it is your job to help with that process) while not letting yourself infantilize them in a negative way (patronize them, bully them, or let them pull you down to childish behavior) is tricky. As a teacher who is only now starting to be of an obviously different generation than my students, in fact, I’ve always found the first part of that to be the thing I’ve done least well, precisely because it’s so much easier to imagine teaching as a conflict-free process motivated by love of learning, where we’re all equal in the classroom, etc. Sometimes, of course, it is, and at those times its a joy. But even the best students are at least partially motivated by the kind of leverage you have over them in your power to assign grades, and knowing how to deal with that responsibility (and that power) productively is really hard (and doesn’t go away if you pretend it doesn’t exist). Having disciplinary problems with the righteously immature students does tend to bring that dilemma into sharper perspective, though, as does the kind of horror show situation Sybil described, where students refuse to give you the necessary authority to do your job. The speed with which you find yourself taking an adversarial attitude is humbling.
September 27, 2009 at 1:04 pm
TF Smith
It’s a glib response, but zero tolerance seems appropriate for 18+ year old adults who are simply disruptive, and apparently have not learned what courtesy means despite having been exposed to it from pre-K onward.
I have had a couple of professors who were simply geniuses at getting discussions back on track in seminar, including a (relatively) young and brilliant woman and an older second-career man (retired USAF officer); both of them have and had a great knack of getting the class loon back on focus – or, in one case, simply encouraging a particular loon to re-consider whether this was the class for them.
I had another course where the loon relished the contrarian position, to the level of arguing the equivalent of “slavery wasn’t that bad” – the professor (young male but very sharp) refocused the loon (I think in a one on one after class) and the devil’s advocate became one of the angels…
I will suggest that professors who ask that they be called by the first name, or who do not dress professionally (with allowances for climate and season), are not helping their cause – I’ve seen that a few times.
September 29, 2009 at 5:39 am
Penny
I meet with disruptive students outside of class and talk with them directly about their motivation for school, their future plans, and how to make the class go better for them. If you try to call out such students in front of the class, it turns things into a pissing match, which the professor will lose because children can always take things further than adults because they know adults have limits in what they can do. This should not be about authority but should be about reestablishing that everyone is there to learn. If such students feel they have nothing to learn in a class, assigning them an outside project to enrich their experience can help. I really don’t think it matters what you wear, if you have a sense of your own authority and project confidence. I wish female teachers would work on that instead of their wardrobe. The freedom to wear whatever you want to class is one of the perks of academia and those who establish a norm of dressing up in class put pressure on others to spend money on clothes we cannot afford. This should be addressed by becoming a better teacher, not a better dressed teacher, in my opinion.
October 2, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Delaney Kirk
When I start thinking that a class is not going well (could be overall lower scores on first test, whining about assignments, whatever), I find it helps to do a mid-term open-ended evaluation. On paper I’ll ask questions about what the students see as going well in the class as well as suggestions they have for improvement. I then address these the next class period and tell them what I can do and what I won’t (and why). It seems to help.
October 2, 2009 at 6:13 pm
rosmar
On being called by first name–I teach at a Quaker college, and everyone here, from the President on down, is called by their first name. It’s a matter of principle here, and, while I sometimes wish I got to hear people call me Doctor or Professor more often, I haven’t seen it be a problem in terms of decreasing student respect for professors.
It might be different in a college with different expectations. Here students and professors know what they are getting into when they sign up.