Stanley Fish informs me that Terry Eagleton is pissed about atheists. In particular, he’s frosted over “Ditchens” (Eagleton’s composite– you know, like New York magazine used to do– of Dawkins and Hitchens) because D&H don’t understand religion right.
The fact that science, liberal rationalism and economic calculation can not ask — never mind answer — such questions should not be held against them, for that is not what they do.
And, conversely, the fact that religion and theology cannot provide a technology for explaining how the material world works should not be held against them, either, for that is not what they do. When Christopher Hitchens declares that given the emergence of “the telescope and the microscope” religion “no longer offers an explanation of anything important,” Eagleton replies, “But Christianity was never meant to be an explanation of anything in the first place. It’s rather like saying that thanks to the electric toaster we can forget about Chekhov.”
What religion does, I gather from Fish’s synopsis, is act as a supplier of meaning-of-life sorts of things.
Science, says Eagleton, “does not start far back enough”; it can run its operations, but it can’t tell you what they ultimately mean or provide a corrective to its own excesses. Likewise, reason is “too skin deep a creed to tackle what is at stake”; its laws — the laws of entailment and evidence — cannot get going without some substantive proposition from which they proceed but which they cannot contain; reason is a non-starter in the absence of an a prior specification of what is real and important, and where is that going to come from? Only from some kind of faith.
Oh, man. I never know what to say to this because I never understand how the Eagleton-style claims square with actual religious practice. It sounds like religion-for-Eagleton is some kind of exhortation about the meaningfulness of life, the importance of values, and so on. Those attitudes are nice, I agree, but (it seems to me) that by the lights of various religions they’re tied to straightforward claims about what’s true or false. That is, a body of religious believers seems to endorse certain attitudes because they take particular claims to be true.
Take for example this bit of Fish’s discussion:
That kind of belief [the rationalist liberal view] will have little use for a creed that has at its center “one who spoke up for love and justice and was done to death for his pains.” No wonder “Ditchkins”…seems incapable of responding to “the kind of commitment made manifest by a human being at the end of his tether, foundering in darkness, pain, and bewilderment, who nevertheless remains faithful to the promise of a transformative love.”
Wait, Socrates? Kidding. I think he means Jesus. According to lots of Christians, though I’m sure not all of them, the faithfulness in transformative love hinges on Jesus being who He said He was, His rising from the dead, promising to return, and so on. A shorthand for this: how to feel depends on what there is. And that’s where things get tricky, because the Eagleton-Fish view seems to drive a wedge between those two issues. Understandably so, since the religious tradition’s claims about what there is look problematic when we address them with our standard ways of answering those sorts of questions.
Thus Eagleton is in an awkward position, it seems to me: he wants religious forms of life to be immune from empirical (and maybe a priori) challenge, but the religious forms of life he seems to be cheering on seem to be committed, implicitly, to views that are open to these challenges.
There’s another irritation here. There seems to be a tendency for religious apologists to make purely defensive moves (“you haven’t refuted my religion!”) and then conclude that they’ve shown that their religious commitments have been suitably established. This is completely unmoving to observers outside the practice, a point made by Matt Taibbi, who goes on to describe Eagleton as
a pudgily superior type, physically resembling a giant runny nose, who seems to have been raised by indulgent aunts who gave him sweets every time he corrected the grammar of other children.
No idea how true that is, but it’s funny. I have a soft spot in my heart for Eagleton, because his Literary Theory convinced me not to take more English classes.


25 comments
May 9, 2009 at 12:18 pm
makarios
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
May 9, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Kieran
a pudgily superior type, physically resembling a giant runny nose, who seems to have been raised by indulgent aunts who gave him sweets every time he corrected the grammar of other children.
Hitchens, on the other hand, is often mistaken for a classical Greek statue come to life.
May 9, 2009 at 1:31 pm
kid bitzer
“a classical Greek statue come to life.”
you had in mind perhaps:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11518583@N00/2738966557/
May 9, 2009 at 1:54 pm
jazzbumpa
Combine magical thinking with an eager disdain for rationality and it’s easy to see why there is a religious right.
May 9, 2009 at 2:14 pm
kevin
Hitchens, on the other hand, is often mistaken for a classical Greek statue come to life.
Maybe if we’re talking about Dionysius.
May 9, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Vance
his Literary Theory convinced me not to take more English classes.
This is really BPhD’s dept., but I can assure you that that book is highly misleading. Even as an undergraduate who never took English, I could tell by reading it that, while entertaining, it was grossly unfair. So I’m not surprised to hear that he’s written a book of special-pleading apologetics. As you say, religion as it is defended to the irreligious would be unrecognizable to the faithful.
The Roman portrait sculptors could have handled Hitchens well.
May 9, 2009 at 9:46 pm
Mr. F
composite– you know, like New York magazine used to do
Nice one.
May 10, 2009 at 8:28 am
dana
It sounds like religion-for-Eagleton is some kind of exhortation about the meaningfulness of life, the importance of values, and so on. Those attitudes are nice, I agree, but (it seems to me) that by the lights of various religions they’re tied to straightforward claims about what’s true or false.
This is a good point. A case can also be made that the division between the world of fact and the world of value proposed here shouldn’t be desirable even for the scientists, at least if (as seems plausible) what is true about the material world is relevant when we debate what is morally right.
May 10, 2009 at 8:38 am
JPool
What’s really funny is that, before this atheism dust-up, Eagleton was best known, after “literary critic”, as, along with Jameson and in a different way Harvey, the last of the great structuralist Marxists. This aspect of Eagleton, Fish, predictably, doesn’t mention at all. So we have Hitchens, the renounced Marxist atheist, against Eagleton, the Marxist true believer defending religious faith. Quite a nice symmetry, but not what Fish had in mind.
May 10, 2009 at 12:47 pm
RobinMarie
I just wanted to say that I thoroughly enjoyed this post. Thanks.
May 10, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Urban Garlic
Thanks for making this point. I’ve struggled to make it myself in conversation from time to time, plus I’m currently re-reading Hitchens’ “God Is Not Great”, and frequently find myself impatient with it.
One distinction I try to draw is the difference between religion (or perhaps religious practice) and philosophy. It seems to me that philosophy gets at a lot of those “meaning of life” questions, often in quite a rational (though not necessarily empirical, evidentiary) way.
Your characterization of the Eagleton-Fish (Figgleton? Can I do that too?) argument suggests to me that what they are really defending is non-evidentiary reasoning such as occurs in philosophy, and if so, then of course it’s not a defense of any particular religion or religious practice.
May 10, 2009 at 4:26 pm
dana
then of course it’s not a defense of any particular religion or religious practice.
This particular form of argument has a long history in Christian apologetics (and their respondents), but you’re right that at bottom the question is about what (if anything) one may believe rationally without evidence.
Figgleton? Can I do that too?
You can if the results are as awesome as “Figgleton”!
May 10, 2009 at 4:46 pm
kth
I usually like Taibbi’s pugilistic style, but this:
>>>If you ever want to give yourself a really good, throbbing headache, go online and check out Eagleton’s lectures at Yale, upon which the book was based, in which one may listen to this soft-soaping old toady do his verbose best to stick his tongue as far as he can up the anus of the next generation of the American upper class.<<<
fairly betrays an utter unfamiliarity with what Eagleton is about, either career-wise or with this address specifically. Whatever Eagleton’s trip is, it isn’t arguing for the established order. In fact, that’s precisely what Eagleton would accuse the new atheists of doing.
Terry Eagleton probably doesn’t himself believe in the Immaculate Conception or the Resurrection. But to his eye, triumphalist atheism is just the latest chapter of bourgeois progressivism, whereby science moots all controversy, and all that remains is the choice to stay in the darkness, or walk into the light.
I imagine most people here (it’s a history blog, after all) won’t really take issue with this portrayal especially of the Progressive Era proper, what with its eugenics and all. What Eagleton is doing is placing this new wave of atheism in this “progressive” context (again, progressive to be understood as distinct from liberalism or democratic socialism), and that association doesn’t seem at all outrageous to me.
May 10, 2009 at 4:51 pm
SEK
I have a soft spot in my heart for Eagleton, because his Literary Theory convinced me not to take more English classes.
Wanted to wait until I had a little more time to respond to this point, but whatever. I don’t think you’ll find anyone who isn’t a literary Marxist of some stripe (as JPool mentioned, like Jameson, but also his many students) that finds most of Literary Theory the equivalent of scholarly slander. Each chapter consists of a less-then-adequate introduction to a diverse body of work and concludes with a litany of said approaches many failures. He never lets on that these failures are only failures if you approach a text from his theoretical perspective, with the effect being that the discipline looks like it’s uncritically devoted to a series of failed methodologies.
Put differently, Eagleton is no less dogmatic now than he was then, he’s merely expanded his list of affiliations.
May 10, 2009 at 4:57 pm
SEK
And that Taibbi article is, like a lot of what he’s written post-election, about 90 percent crap. Consider:
I’ve disproven his first claim by writing this very sentence. And his comment about alliteration makes no sense. (Had he gone after colons, however . . .) Point being: Taibbi’s on-mark when he’s doing actual reporting, but as a social or cultural critic, lacks the basic knowledge of whatever it is he’s addressing required to do so responsibly. In its place, his trademarked* venom.
*By Hunter S. Thompson.
May 10, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Vance
Up above, Scott missed a negative — you won’t find many who DON’T find Eagleton’s Literary Theory the equivalent of slander. In Berube’s words, “a book so glib and unreliable that I would not inflict it on any serious student”.
May 10, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Bloix
You define religion so that it excludes virtually everything that genuinely observant people believe, and then say that science has no business attacking any kind of religion, whether it fits your definition or not. This game has become so boring it really isn’t worth playing anymore.
It’s interesting that Stephen Jay Gould tried to play it from the other side. In a transparent effort to protect science from the crazies, he argued that there were two distinct “magisteria,” two separate worlds of human experience. The problem was that in order to make his argument work he had to define religion narrowly enough to exclude most religious belief (for example, the idea that all humanity is descended from a single couple doesn’t square with what’s known about human evolution.) So Gould couldn’t win with this game either.
But there is a social benefit to persuading the believers that scientists don’t hate them. That’s what Gould was up to. What Fish thinks he’s doing- there, you’ve got me.
May 10, 2009 at 10:23 pm
herbert browne
*the division between the world of fact and the world of value proposed here shouldn’t be desirable even for the scientists, at least if (as seems plausible) what is true about the material world is relevant when we debate what is morally right*
Uh-huh… otherwise we’d have probably found some Other Place to live… ^..^
May 11, 2009 at 5:21 am
thabo
The true core of what religion/spirituality is about is meaning-of-life, etc.
The practice of religion, however, has more to do with social control, etc. That is where it clashes with science, because it treads the same domain. It tries to tell people how to live their lives based on untested tradition. Science will always trump religion there.
On the question of meaning, today’s science is hopeless. It has not even started, some work on Consciousness, etc may eventually produce something, but currently religion is better suited to the current human condition.
May 11, 2009 at 5:24 am
Lurker
It seems to me that philosophy gets at a lot of those “meaning of life” questions, often in quite a rational (though not necessarily empirical, evidentiary) way.
What is “rational”? Does it mean “non-self-contradictory”? Because as far as I see, you can construct quite a lot of very rational moral systems with results that most of us would consider immoral. Usually, when you select a moral system, you start with results and deduce the axioms you need to get the results you want. These results are usually selected non-rationally.
For example, if we take biodiversity to be the foremost moral value, we can come up with a very rational argument that the total destruction of mankind is a morally good thing, and all actions furthering that are morally good. However, most of us probably find that argument immoral. Yet, such argument remains rational. So, rationality does not morals make.
Indeed, I posit that any good moral system is a inherently irrational. With any set of underlying principles, applying rigid rational deduction leads to results that are not morally acceptable. Thus, a person must in such case put the principles aside and follow the irrational call of conscience.
May 11, 2009 at 10:37 am
herbert browne
*Thus, a person must in such case put the principles aside and follow the irrational call of conscience*
How “irrational” is a mother’s love (eg a hungry mother bear)? It seems that morality has evolved (or “progressed”) from balancing survival & compassion… from the “primary” social units on out to the broader community. Did something as “irrational” (by some measures) as The Golden Rule rise out of “survival of the fittest”? ^..^
May 11, 2009 at 11:41 am
Vance
The true core of what religion/spirituality is about is…
cf.
May 11, 2009 at 8:21 pm
The Tragically Flip
Accepting as true that science has made negligible progress on these issues (I think it isn’t actually right though), the problem here is that religion offers “answers” but they have a long track record of being amazingly wrong and often actively harmful ones.
There’s no reason to believe any particular religion’s answers (leaving the tricky problem of how to pick which one to go with) to these questions will be correct, or even if such questions have no right answer, useful.
I don’t know tomorrow’s winning lottery numbers, but I’m not going to an astrologer to get these answers that science cannot provide either.
May 12, 2009 at 6:40 am
thabo
“the problem here is that religion offers “answers” but they have a long track record of being amazingly wrong and often actively harmful ones”
The “answers” you refer are often wrong and that is the role of science, to discover truth to dispel notions that are no more than superstitions. I think it is actually good for religion to be exposed, so that it begins to review its’ role in society at large.
Scientists are currently finally taking placebo effect eriously, which combines issues of belief, meaning with actual medical outcomes. Explanations offered by science are currently insufficient. Until recently, accupuncture was dismissed as total rubbish. Science too often acts like a religion, dismissing issues without doing actual investigation, that too does harm.
Science plays no part in meaning, even though human beings have been defined as “meaning-making machines”. I am certainly not going to consult a scientist if I have an existential crisis, maybe a philosopher, maybe a believer.
May 12, 2009 at 9:52 am
JPool
I don’t know tomorrow’s winning lottery numbers, but I’m not going to an astrologer to get these answers that science cannot provide either.
Right, presumably because you’ve either had bad results with astrologers in the past, or because you reject them as unscientific. Other folks feel that they are in possession of different evidence and come to different conclusions.
Neither the “religion is just bad science” or the “religion and science are entirely separate realms and never the Twain shall meet” are being especially accurate about religion or science as actually practiced. Thirty years of Science Studies have shown that science is often just as much about cultural preoccupations as about universal truth seeking. Scientist have taken the “placebo effect” seriously, for as long as it’s had that name, they just use it as a hand-waving explanation for anything with demonstrated results that doesn’t fit its existing frameworks. With, say, accupuncture, it’s possible that its successes are based in the placebo effect. It’s also possible that it is based in an explanatory science that a) has some fairly gross errors where human anatomy is concerned, b) makes use of systems in the body that western science has yet to understand, c) works anyway/all of the above.
Religious practices and systems of belief are based at least in part on truth claims, and often have their own quasi-scientific systems for producing truth, just with different rules of evidence. (In African Philosophy there is Robert Horton’s well known analysis of the Azande poison ritual and its formal similarlities to the scientific method.) Some religious practice is based on at least formally accepting particular truth claims (“There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet”) but others not so much. Plenty of monotheists can ditch the literal creation story and still believe that the text that follows connects them to the divine and/or provides valuable instruction for life.