The above is Wes Clark on Face the Nation, suggesting that having been a prisoner of war during Vietnam doesn’t necessarily qualify John McCain to be President of the United States. Actually, Clark’s argument is more nuanced than that: he notes that McCain, for all his heroism, lacks command experience, which might really be relevant to working in the Oval Office. The best part of the clip, though, is the reaction — first incredulous, then angry, finally fuming — of Bob Schieffer, the show’s host. Schieffer, who served in the USAF for three years as a public information officer, simply can’t believe that Clark would dare spew such apostasy.
Clark’s appearance and then several follow-ups, the Obama camp’s speedy and perhaps ill-considered repudiation of Clark’s comments, and McCain’s subsequent efforts to claim that Clark besmirched his honor while simultaneously burning Old Glory and spitting on a nun have generated quite a bit of conversation today. (See, if you can stomach it: Clark “swiftboated” McCain.) All of which means that Barack Obama, because of an increasingly oft-used property of guilt-by-association that applies only to Democrats, doesn’t support our troops. It seems that most of the talk, as the preceding rant suggests, has been about the politics surrounding this absurd brouhaha.* I haven’t seen many people considering whether Clark is right on the merits, whether McCain’s tenure in a Vietnamese prison camp leaves him no more likely to succeed as president than Obama, who has no military background.
That’s where Fontana Labs provides us with some much-needed help. Labs kind of beat Clark to the punch about a week ago, responding, in a post over at Unfogged, to what was then Richard Cohen’s** latest in a succession of execrable columns. In that piece of drivel, Cohen suggests that, because of McCain’s wartime experience, the American people should ignore his serial flip-flopping of late. The Maverick will be resolute when it counts, Cohen assures us. Labs***, in his nut graf, replies:
Thanks in large part to John Doris and Gil Harman, a lot of philosophers are vaguely familiar with situationist psychologists who think that there’s very little predictive value to our folk-psychological character concepts. As I understand it, one situationist theme is that (for example) courage as traditionally conceived is far too broad: someone might have courage-in-situation-x but fail to have courage-in-situation-y, and there’s very little correlation between the two fine-grained traits. Hence we shouldn’t expect courage-on-the-battlefield to predict courage-in-committee-meetings. But we do, and so are led into error. McCain is a really interesting example of the phenomenon just because both his courage and his failure to be courageous are on full public display.
Yes, just so. And furthermore, circling back to and expanding upon Wes Clark’s original point about experience, history is agnostic on whether great warriors make great presidents. In the “yea” column you’ll find George Washington. Because I’m feeling generous and Eric’s looking over my shoulder, I’ll thow in Teddy Roosevelt. And if you insist that I expand the column to include borderline cases, we could also talk about Andrew Jackson****, Harry Truman, and Ike. The “nay” column is far longer, so I’ll just hit the highlights: Zachary Taylor, U.S. Grant, Rutherford Hayes, James Garfield, Benjamin Harrison, William McKinley, John Kennedy, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, George H.W. Bush, and, of course, George W. Bush.
Perhaps more interesting than any of the above, though, is this: the nation’s two greatest commanders in chief, and, not coincidentally, two greatest presidents, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Delano Roosevelt, never served in the military.
The point here isn’t that heroic service in the armed forces should disqualify a candidate from the presidency. That’s just silly. But it’s equally silly to assume that valor on the battlefield will translate into excellence in the executive branch. That such a claim is the centerpiece of John McCain’s bid for the presidency — and make no mistake, it absolutely is — speaks volumes. Which is why McCain and his flying monkeys in the press corps are lashing out so fiercely at Wes Clark. All of that said, why Barack Obama is taking his whacks at Clark is anybody’s guess.
* See the updates. I’m totally wrong about this. Oops.
** Worse than ever for the Jews, thank you very much.
*** You’ll have to decide for yourself if “Fontana Labs” is just one of the many pseudonyms that “General Wesley Clark (C, Cuba)” deploys when he prowls the web. Clark used to be notorious for commenting under the handle, “SACEUR.” Until, that is, Petey outed him for hating on John Edwards.
**** You have no idea how much this pains me. No, really.
[Update: Here's Clark artfully elaborating on his earlier comments without apologizing at all. Veep? Maybe so. Maybe this is all some super-complicated gambit in which Clark serves as attack dog, Obama disavows Clark's comments, and then they come together to conquer the world. Via TPM.]
[Update II: Oh look, The Editors covered this issue. It looks like I was wrong that nobody was writing about substance. Please ignore my post. Sigh.]
[Update III: There's also substance from the awesome Sir Charles at cogitamus, which I usually read every damn day. Rats. Wait, I have a novel idea: I think I'll read my favorite blogs, beyond just TPM, before I write my posts in the future. Then I won't look like an idiot. Er, quite as much of an idiot.]


71 comments
July 1, 2008 at 2:39 am
albiondia
Abe’s greatness is directly consequent to his experience as a militia captain during the Black Hawk War. If there isn’t an article to this effect SOMEWHERE amongst the warehouses of guff written on Lincoln, well… I’ll have lost all faith in the kitschness of the Presidential Synthesis.
July 1, 2008 at 3:23 am
Ben Alpers
history is agnostic on whether great warriors make great presidents
Your assessment covers presidents who were warriors, not only those who were great warriors. McCain behaved impressively as a POW, but, for whatever it’s worth, I don’t think there’s any evidence one way or another about whether he was a “great warrior” in the sense that, say, Grant and Ike were great warriors.
All of that said, why Barack Obama is taking his whacks at Clark is anybody’s guess.
My sense is that it reflects the extent to which both major parties have bought into the fairly mindless militarism that has reinfected U.S. culture since we learned to forget the lessons of Vietnam.
July 1, 2008 at 4:45 am
ari
You know, Ben, it turns out to be even more complicated to figure out which presidents were “great” warriors than it is to figure out which ones were “great” presidents. I started trying, but I quickly hit the memory snag. It seems that every president who served, served with “great” distinction.
So, while it’s easy enough to separate out Washington, Jackson*, Grant, and Eisenhower, what to make of Taylor, Hayes, Garfield, Roosevelt, Kennedy, or George H.W. Bush, all of whom could claim to be “great” warriors?
* All the usual caveats apply.
July 1, 2008 at 4:47 am
matt w
It seems that every president who served, served with “great” distinction.
There is no possible account on which this includes George W. Bush. None.
Assassination Vacation made me really like James Garfield, as a man if not as a president. Poor guy.
July 1, 2008 at 4:53 am
matt w
Reagan has a much better claim to be counted on the warrior side than G. W. Bush. He was in the active duty military and actually did his job, which was to make training films.
At which point, since it seems like most presidents were in the military some time or other, it gets to have no predictive value at all.
July 1, 2008 at 4:54 am
ari
There is no possible account on which this includes George W. Bush. None.
That’s a fair point, Matt, but wait a few years. Seriously, just give it time. The Republican memory machine is an awesome thing, even more powerful than the party’s voter suppression apparatus.
July 1, 2008 at 4:58 am
ari
it gets to have no predictive value at all
Right. Unless you want to say: most presidents were in the military, most presidents were bad presidents, therefore serving in the military means that a person will be a bad president. Which is absurd.
July 1, 2008 at 5:01 am
CharleyCarp
A commenter on a Missoula blog I read offered the best analogy ever in response to this incident:
Phony outrage really is all they’ve got.
July 1, 2008 at 5:09 am
ari
Phony outrage really is all they’ve got.
This is my feeling as well. Which is why it pains me to see Obama legitimating McCain’s absurd attacks on Clark.
July 1, 2008 at 5:33 am
silbey
Obama’s distancing himself from Clark because the uproar fits into a narrative about the Democrats not supporting the troops (cf every campaign since Vietnam) and Obama not being patriotic (cf flag-pin kerfluffle).
July 1, 2008 at 6:21 am
PorJ
You guys got it all wrong. Another advisor to Obama went after McCain’s military record yesterday on ABC News – Rand Beers. This is a coordinated attack on McCain’s (only) electoral strength. Obama and his advisors are brilliantly asking questions about McCain’s “experience” – thus, he lowers the public estimation of McCain’s most important asset while raising Obama’s chief (perceived) weakness to par with his opponent. And, oh yeah: Obama distances himself with some serious stern words, just so everyone knows he’s above all this. Its great – and it makes me think they really do have a road-map to landslide.
July 1, 2008 at 6:27 am
ari
As the first update notes, PorJ, I think you may be right: I think this could be a coordinated effort to diminish McCain’s greatest perceived strength. Anyway, we’ll know more as time passes. If Obama’s surrogates continue banging this drum, we’ll have our answer.
July 1, 2008 at 6:35 am
eric
Self-hating Canadian.
July 1, 2008 at 6:37 am
ari
Matt W? Dude, Canada isn’t part of Vermont. Yet.
July 1, 2008 at 6:44 am
eric
No, you. Dude.
July 1, 2008 at 6:45 am
Charlieford
“Jackson”
Racist.
July 1, 2008 at 6:49 am
ari
No, you. Dude.
Yeah, I know. And it’s true.
Racist.
Yeah, I know. And it’s true.
July 1, 2008 at 7:31 am
politicalfootball
One contrarian data point on the Clark comment. I was watching the local Fox affiliate’s late news, which went like this:
-Reporter accurately describes Clark’s comment.
-Obama disavows it, complimenting McCain’s war service.
-McCain criticizes Clark, and wonders if Clark’s comments are part of some over-arching plan.
Now I’m pretty much down with Left Blogistan’s conventional wisdom on this: Obama (and the Democrats) can’t knuckle under to absurd right-wing narratives. That said, on the Fox report I saw, Clark came off as sensible, Obama as statesmanlike and McCain as whiny. Maybe Obama did the right thing here.
July 1, 2008 at 7:45 am
Sir Charles
You flatter me good sir.
I thought Clark’s point was pretty straight forward and unassailable — flying around and dropping bombs on people really isn’t a big credential in terms of foreign policy experience. Why would anyone think it would be?
But the mainstream media is acting like Clark disparaged McCain’s service, which of course he didn’t. I am curious as to where this sense of outrage was during the swift boating of Kerry.
July 1, 2008 at 9:40 am
Fontana Labs
“Nut graph”? Honestly, Ari.
My pollyanna-ish take on this is that thanks to Wes Clark, a lot of people are talking about whether having been a POW makes somebody a better president. More than a few will conclude: huh, not so much. I hope stage two is: experience matters because it’s supposed to help you make better decisions, but McCain keeps making bad ones.
So, so glad to see Clark stand his ground, express respect for McCain’s service, and keep making the point.
July 1, 2008 at 11:15 am
Student
Maybe Ike was a little better than “borderline” as least in foreign policy. He showed responsibility by getting out of the Korean war without using nukes, by rejecting advice for “preventive war” against the Soviets, and by avoiding military intervention in Dienbienphu. He also handled the Berlin situation (1958-1960) pretty deftly, avoiding confrontational moves against the Soviets. And he got the nuclear test ban negotiations going, preceding over the first moratorium of nuclear testing. All good stuff.
True, he made big political and financial commitments to South Vietnam, which would turn out to be highly problematic. And the covert interventions in Guatemala and Iran (especially) would prove costly and harmful. And there’s the matter of assasination plots and the U-2 crisis. So, he wasn’t “great”, but maybe moderately good?
July 1, 2008 at 11:26 am
PorJ
Third time is a trend. Jim Webb is now speaking about McCain’s service…. It must be coordinated; I’m sure if Obama’s people wanted this dropped, it would be…
July 1, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Giblets
“Racist.”
Andrew Jackson wasn’t racist. He was a great president who just happened to have a teensy bit of a genocide habit. And since when do we let a little genocide come between us and our presidents!
July 1, 2008 at 12:35 pm
urbino
Alls I know is the only one coming out of this thing sounding like a grownup is Wes Clark.
July 1, 2008 at 12:44 pm
eric
Stipulating you’re right, PorJ, are these guys auditioning for Veep, or are they ruled out as Veep by doing this job?
July 1, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Fats Durston
Andrew Jackson wasn’t racist. He was a great president who just happened to have a teensy bit of a genocide habit. And since when do we let a little genocide come between us and our presidents!
Sounds an awful lot like a wingnut I saw recently decrying Africa’s savagery as a continent vs. Europe, and actually writing something along the lines of: “if we ignore the Holocaust and Stalin.” Is Giblets working both sides of the aisle?
July 1, 2008 at 1:43 pm
ari
General Clark, er, I mean Labs — That’s the last time I say anything nice about you. And yes, I’ll change graph to graf. What a blunder.
Student — I think you’ve done an excellent job outlining what I mean by “borderline.” Which is to say, presidents who were very good at some things and much less good at others.
PorJ — Yep, now I’m definitely with you. This is clearly coordinated: the surrogates raise the issue, and Obama shakes his head sadly and says, “Gee, I just don’t know why those awful men would ever say anything bad about Senator McCain.”
Giblets — Giblets!
Urbino — Could be you’re right. But I’m no longer convinced this is a bad strategy. I think it might be pretty shrewd.
Fats — Giblets is Giblets. If that helps.
July 1, 2008 at 2:12 pm
ari
Oh, and Charles, it’s nice to have you here. And no, I didn’t flatter you; you *are* awesome. And you matter. Also, pf, I now think that’s probably right, as the comment above suggests.
July 1, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Student
OK, Ari, but I’ll quibble: doesn’t “moderately good” have a more positive connotation than “borderline”? When I was a TA and started grading papers, I remember thinking borderline between C and D or between A and B. It depends on where the border is, no?
July 1, 2008 at 2:42 pm
ari
Here, Student, I was talking about “great” presidents and warriors. So, in this case, “borderline” would represent the line between “good” and “great,” I think. [/nonsense]
July 1, 2008 at 4:26 pm
PorJ
Stipulating you’re right, PorJ, are these guys auditioning for Veep, or are they ruled out as Veep by doing this job?
I’ve got no idea. They could be both auditioning for the job AND ruling themselves out at once (in which case, they *really* are doing Obama a favor by taking heat while giving him an excuse not to choose them – ‘too hot’ and all that).
I’m guessing that they have some great polling/strategy stuff on this – for instance: they’ve probably counted on the right-wing media going crazy and spreading this message. When you think about it, the bottom line message is that McCain is experienced because he’s really, really old. He was shot down in ‘nam when Obama was like 7 years old. If they can get McCain to harrumph enough it will play into the is-he-too-old meme beautifully. If they can get McCain to cry, yell, or curse they will really hit the jackpot. Its fun to watch the right-wing conniptions over this.
July 1, 2008 at 6:31 pm
urbino
Maybe they’re auditioning for being ruled out. Or ruling out being auditioned. Or ruling the audition of Being. (Heavy.)
But I’m no longer convinced this is a bad strategy. I think it might be pretty shrewd.
Maybe. But you know me; I’m all about the discourse on this one.
July 1, 2008 at 9:28 pm
bitchphd
What the heck, I’ll make an argument that military service is problematic for a presidential candidate. Military service is, of course, illogical: anyone who signs up does so because something overrides the basic “no, I do not want to get killed, thank you” impulse. Mostly, what overrides that is patriotism.
I’m going to say that patriotism, at least patriotism that is so strong as to be a major aspect of one’s character, is not a great quality for leaders. It’s strong rhetorically, obviously, and blah blah inspiring, and those are leadership qualities. But in terms of actually handling real crises, making intelligent and well-thought-out decisions, etc? Patriotism is a prejudice, and it can probably fuck people up.
July 1, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Vance Maverick
Perhaps we should outsource leadership to private contractors, whose lucid consideration of the pros and cons won’t be thus prejudiced.
July 1, 2008 at 9:54 pm
ari
Now we’re talking. But that damnable Article II, Section 1 thing might stand in the way of this great idea. Stupid Constitution.
July 1, 2008 at 10:08 pm
urbino
Perhaps we should outsource leadership to private contractors, whose lucid consideration of the pros and cons won’t be thus prejudiced.
Well, it would be guided by the Invisible Hand. It’s all market forces, people.
July 1, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Vance Maverick
BTW, I actually also agree with B. Kind of. On an electoral level, of course, any qualification of patriotism is poison. On a practical level, she has a point.
We all know Chesterton’s remark that “‘My country, right or wrong,’ is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, ‘My mother, drunk or sober.’” But it’s terribly glib. Sure, saying, “My country is perfect and to be cheered on, right or wrong” is bad, just like “My mother is perfect and to be cheered on, drunk or sober”. But how about making the analogy on the plane of love? Chesterton goes on to say “No doubt if a decent man’s mother took to drink he would share her troubles to the last” — but I have no doubt that a decent man would help her to stop. Similarly, if one’s country is wrong, one should help it stop; and love of country is no disqualification. On the contrary. I would think. Or so all that rousing rhetoric has taught me.
July 1, 2008 at 10:15 pm
urbino
I’ll go so far as to say voluntary military service is prima facie evidence of a character flaw, and the burden of proof is on the serviceperson to demonstrate that s/he is an exception.
July 1, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Vance Maverick
On rereading that, I see it’s pretty murky. I was trying to say that the line B takes is well-known, and the Chesterton is a familiar expression of it; but that there’s a fairly strong notion of patriotism that’s defensible in contrast.
July 2, 2008 at 5:07 am
ac
I’ll go so far as to say voluntary military service is prima facie evidence of a character flaw
Well, now military service doesn’t make a lot of sense. But historically, it’s not just patriotism that made people sign up for military service. It was the most reliable way of proving masculinity. The “becoming a man” narrative was almost inextricably bound up with the narrative of going off to war, and the whole culture was geared toward making that an attractive choice. Some identifiably male peacetime activities, like contact sports, function as training for war, to give you physical courage and get over that aversion to being hurt—to a foolhardy degree. That is, explicitly, what they were originally for. (The Battle of Waterloo won on the playing fields of Eton, &c.)
Since the First World War, or since Vietnam in this country, that manhood and war narrative has been discredited, but there is still a lot of fake nostalgia for it—even in the era of a small professional military, when almost no one serves anymore. No doubt this is because of that eternal crisis of masculinity.
July 2, 2008 at 5:12 am
silbey
Uh, folks, I think we have several different definitions of “patriotism” floating around the thread.
(And is someone going into any potentially life-threatening occupation “illogical”?)
July 2, 2008 at 5:21 am
ari
Leaving aside silbey’s point (which seems right) about the need to define terms more carefully, military service was and is also a way of getting ahead for a lot of people. Admittedly, during wartime the risks may well outweigh the rewards. Still, while many Native Americans (a group with disproportionate representation in the armed forces), for example, are exceptionally patriotic (again, sorry silbey), they also enlist for access to otherwise rare economic opportunities and mobility.
July 2, 2008 at 5:29 am
silbey
Still, while many Native Americans (a group with disproportionate representation in the armed forces), for example, are exceptionally patriotic (again, sorry silbey), they also enlist for access to otherwise rare economic opportunities and mobility.
Not just Native Americans
July 2, 2008 at 5:32 am
ari
Yes, of course, I was just drawing on the example that I actually know.
July 2, 2008 at 5:39 am
silbey
Never thought otherwise; I was just expanding your evidence base (and showing off).
July 2, 2008 at 5:42 am
ari
You call that showing off? Well, try this. Oh wait, you write the book in your link. Curses.
July 2, 2008 at 7:22 am
On Small Fees and Donated Funds « Accismus
[...] 2, 2008 by Elizabeth Well, since Wesley Clark brought it up, does military service make for better presidential leadership, or no? . . . [H]istory is agnostic on whether great warriors make great presidents. In the [...]
July 2, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Fats Durston
Fats — Giblets is Giblets. If that helps.
Please, I am aware of all internet traditions. I was just angry that Giblets was talking out of both sides of his mouth: supporting Doctor Apulus and the giant pill bug party.
July 2, 2008 at 8:36 pm
urbino
Sorry, I didn’t see all these further comments till just now.
As I said, it’s only a prima facie case, subject to an affirmative defense. Those who enter because it is the only way — or one of extremely few ways — for them to advance socio-economically have an obvious affirmative defense.
Well, now military service doesn’t make a lot of sense. But historically, it’s not just patriotism that made people sign up for military service.
I don’t think patriotism is even a particularly prominent cause of entering military service today. Aside from the reasons noted above, the most common reason, IMO (data is for real historians), is just lifestyle appeal. By and large, people go into the military because they like doing the kinds of things one does in the military. The fact that you can get paid for it makes it an ideal career. The fact that you will be valorized and deferred to by the entire rest of society (see Alpers’ linked stats in the RTO thread) is some very righteous gravy.
I should note that I’m talking about the rank and file volunteer. My sense is that people who enter through one of the service academies are a different kettle of fish, though I still don’t think patriotism is a leading cause of their entering said academies.
July 2, 2008 at 8:38 pm
urbino
By and large, people go into the military because they like doing the kinds of things one does in the military.
And I should’ve added this is the primary reason I think military service is evidence of a character flaw.
July 2, 2008 at 8:47 pm
bitchphd
The mother/country analogy is a very poor one, inasmuch as one’s country is not, actually, a person with motivations and a personality and such.
July 2, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Walt
I see from silbey’s comment that the sole purpose of any discussion between historians is an excuse to work in a reference to any books they have written.
July 2, 2008 at 11:55 pm
urbino
I don’t think it’s specific to historians. Hellz, if I’d written a book, you couldn’t shut me up about it.
July 3, 2008 at 3:37 am
ac
I was just pointing out that there was a major break or fissure in the Western military ideal, starting about, oh, July 1916 or so.
July 3, 2008 at 5:49 am
silbey
By and large, people go into the military because they like doing the kinds of things one does in the military.
Do you have any evidence for this?
Because there are so many complexities in that simple statement that I hardly know where to start (do people know what the military actually does, or is their image created by cultural influences like TV and movies? For example–and I’ll throw this out for the group at large–what percentage of the army is actually made up of combat units, the folks who do the fighting and killing?).
see from silbey’s comment that the sole purpose of any discussion between historians is an excuse to work in a reference to any books they have written.
You’re certainly welcome to join in the exercise.
was just pointing out that there was a major break or fissure in the Western military ideal, starting about, oh, July 1916 or so.
God love Paul Fussell, but you know irony had actually existed before the Somme. The idea that WWI was an unprecedented caesura in Western history would have come to a surprise to the parts of the Holy Roman Empire that were genocidially depopulated during the Thirty Years’ War. Nor was there–despite Victor Davis Hanson–a ‘western military ideal.’
July 3, 2008 at 7:59 am
Vance Maverick
B, I only sort of agree about the mother/country analogy. Apart from being honored by long convention, it actually does stand up to your analysis as well as we should expect. A country does have something like character, and something like motivation. Not exactly like, obviously, but within hailing distance. And (what I take to be the core of the analogy) our country does form us, rather as our mother does.
July 3, 2008 at 8:49 am
eric
I only sort of agree about the mother/country analogy
I wrote a book about this.
(I mean, I don’t want to disillusion Walt, do I?)
July 3, 2008 at 12:56 pm
urbino
Do you have any evidence for this?
No. Only anecdata. That’s why I included the parenthetical about data being for real historians. Nonetheless, in the absence of statistically validated data, my own experience is the only data I have to go on. I’m sure there is some real data out there somewhere, but where it is and what its actual probative value is, I don’t know.
Because there are so many complexities in that simple statement that I hardly know where to start
Agreed, and — again, based on my own experience — I think the specific examples of complexities you mention do come into play. What I had in mind was a lifestyle where one spends one’s days working out, learning how to kick somebody’s ass, and generally running around shooting things and blowing shit up. That you can get paid to play with cool toys and become a bad ass, that’s been the primary appeal of the military to the people I’ve known who signed up.
I’m glad there are people who enjoy that kind of thing; it keeps me from having to do it. But I don’t think they are, as a group, notably more courageous or patriotic or self-sacrificing than the average American. The average American would do the same things if s/he had to; the volunteer does them because s/he enjoys them.
July 3, 2008 at 3:00 pm
ac
Look, it’s not just Paul Fussell. That is the place the First World War occupies in memory. Just to cite one example I was reading recently, from a history of psychoanalysis:
July 3, 2008 at 3:10 pm
ac
And dammit, man, have you never seen Blackadder?
July 3, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Josh
And dammit, man, have you never seen Blackadder?
Paging Dan Todman. Dan Todman to the white courtesy phone.
July 3, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Vance Maverick
Shell shock was the symptom of this fraying.
I call….well, not bullshit, but the unwarranted privileging of a complex pet explanation over a simple one. Watching one’s friends mulched into mud will do things to you even if it doesn’t fray one’s aristocratic warrior ethic.
July 3, 2008 at 5:22 pm
silbey
What I had in mind was a lifestyle where one spends one’s days working out, learning how to kick somebody’s ass, and generally running around shooting things and blowing shit up.
But, see, that’s what I mean about the complexity of things. Very few people in the military actually do any of things you just mentioned. Combat units in the army make up about 10% of the force. The rest are there to supply and support those combat units. On an aircraft carrier, there are about 100 pilots (who do the bombing/fighting, etc) and 5000 people there to support them. So the question is: are people signing up because they think that they’re going to be one of those few, or because they think “Hey, I can get trained in electronics, get paid, put money aside for college, and get out of this s***hole of a town that I grew up in.” I’d suspect there are a lot more of the latter than you’re letting on to.
That is the place the First World War occupies in memory.
Occupies in whose memory? The public’s? Maybe, though I would guess most Americans would be somewhat surprised by this. By the military’s? Maybe, though that same happily thuggish military aristocracy of Junkers that had failed so spectacularly in WWI were jumping all over themselves to do it again in 1941-45.
Several military aristocracies had been involved in the decades-long Napoleonic wars that were just as devastating as the First World War and had survived it quite easily. The memory you’re talking about is a largely a British construction, and not even one that was common during the war (Janet Watson, among others, has done some nice work showing that the heavily antiwar stuff–Owens, Sassoon, etc–didn’t start coming out until the mid-1920s. The immediate reaction to the war was largely “well, that was horrible, but we had to do it.”)
And dammit, man, have you never seen Blackadder?
Don’t get me started on Blackadder
July 3, 2008 at 6:07 pm
urbino
So the question is: are people signing up because they think that they’re going to be one of those few, or because they think “Hey, I can get trained in electronics, get paid, put money aside for college, and get out of this s***hole of a town that I grew up in.” I’d suspect there are a lot more of the latter than you’re letting on to.
In my experience, much of which involves a s***hole of a town, there’s far more of the former than of the latter. I don’t think the typical kid, when signing up for the military, sees or thinks much beyond basic training. I readily agree that many will say something about learning a trade, etc., but my impression is that, by and large, that’s just noise, mostly for their parents’ benefit; they may as well be saying they want to join the military so they can learn how to be a firetruck.
My sense is that the kids who join, say, the Navy while talking about wanting to learn electronics are really saying: “I’m gonna learn about electronics on an aircraft carrier! Dude!” Their primary interest isn’t electronics; it’s the enormous and enormously powerful piece of military hardware. Given an opportunity to learn about electronics by reconditioning cell phones for a local company, their interest in electronics would suddenly wane.
As for the getting paid part, I think I mentioned that was part of the appeal. In my experience, though, using that money for college isn’t a major motivating factor. Part of the appeal of the military is that it’s not college. It’s one of the very few ways to have no marketable skills and still get a job, get free training for that job, start getting paid even while you’re in training, and have a lifelong career without ever having to set foot in college (to the small extent they think that far ahead).
Now, once they’re in, and the military reality you talk about starts to become real to them, thoughts start to shift to “How can I use what’s left of my commitment to start positioning myself to do something else?” But I’m talking about the reasons people sign up in the first place; not what they say after they’ve been in a while.
July 3, 2008 at 6:27 pm
ac
I mean memory in the sense that terms like “shell shock” and “the trenches” conjure the futility of war in a way that no surviving term from the Napoleonic wars does. WWI created a whole language of disaffection for military ideals. Perhaps it did so in the 1920s, in retrospect, but that’s kind of the point, isn’t it? That anti-war writers were creating a new language, rejecting the patriotic one they’d been given during the war itself.
July 3, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Rich Puchalsky
James Branch Cabell wrote about American writers in the 1920s that they were the first American literary generation to say that something was wrong with society. And that no one was going to remember them because they didn’t offer any solution.
July 3, 2008 at 8:02 pm
“Such an awful universe of battle.” « The Edge of the American West
[...] of primary sources, now-iconic music, and David McCullough’s spare narration. And speaking of masculinity and patriotism, I should know better than to let this bring tears to my eyes. Damn you Ken Burns! You and your [...]
July 4, 2008 at 5:32 am
silbey
I mean memory in the sense that terms like “shell shock” and “the trenches” conjure the futility of war in a way that no surviving term from the Napoleonic wars does.
That’s largely because the Napoleonic Wars (and the Thirty Years War) are much farther back than the First World War. Both of them (especially the Thirty Years War) during the first century afterward were remembered with the same kind of horror that the First World War was. There’s a reason why there was an extended period of peace (or at least no continent-wide wars) after both wars.
WWI created a whole language of disaffection for military ideals.
There was an “entire language of disaffection” for military ideals quite happily in existence already. That the period from about 1870-1914 was not the most fruitful time for it is not quite the same thing.
urbino:
But I’m talking about the reasons people sign up in the first place; not what they say after they’ve been in a while.
What you’re actually talking about is *your* impression/sense of why people sign up. This may or may not be why people actually sign up, but it’s a thin reed on which to base an evaluation of someone’s character.
July 4, 2008 at 6:21 am
ac
Not to prolong the discussion unduly, but Waterloo, at least, was a clear victory, and Wellington emerged from it wrapped in spectacular old-fashioned utterly recognizable military glory, showered in gifts from allied rulers.
July 4, 2008 at 9:09 am
minuteman 76
We’re right about Clark:
Read about McCain’s maverick reputation from a retired NAVY COMMANDER who served with him as a FELLOW POW at the Hanoi Hilton.
Just have a look at military.com
and search Phillip Butler’s story for when he served with John McCain as a POW in Hanoi…. Butler was a POW for 8 years!!!
July 4, 2008 at 9:46 am
Josh
I mean memory in the sense that terms like “shell shock” and “the trenches” conjure the futility of war in a way that no surviving term from the Napoleonic wars does.
Not from the Napoleonic wars, but what about “The Charge of the Light Brigade”?